Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 15, 2015 13:38:35 GMT
I had a listen to the k712 and k812 this morning to compare.
Both really nice headphones. Space and clarity is excellent with both. Bass is fairly light touch but it goes really deep. That surprised me since I know that the K701/702 roll away after 50 hz or so quite steeply. That's one of the things that put me right off the K701 plus a very problematic (for me) treble. I felt that there was no real depth to the bass and there was a nasty area where it kind of sizzled. Once you hear it,you can't ignore it so my old K701 went away and I replaced it with the K601 and then the K612. Again, deep bass isn't prominent but at least the top wasn't quite as sizzly as the K701 and I really did like their clarity and sense of space a great deal.
I was very curious about the K812 so I took a look at some fr graphs and found that the 712 is pretty close tbh... At much lower price. Figures and graphs aren't everything so I set up a listening session.
Result is that I do like the K712 a lot. It still has an AKG type treble although it seems smoother than I remember but the bass is way improved on the K701. Same for the K812. If I'm honest, I don't get the price difference between these two. Listening made me feel more and more that the K812 is perhaps a bit over priced and perhaps the result of these companies all wanting a 'Premium' headphone in their lineup. However, by 'Premium' it sounds to me as though they really mean premium price and not a great deal more other than quoted figures that tell you the headphone goes further up into the 'bat' region where we can't really hear. I guess someone would say that we CAN detect sounds at 54khz now!! Or maybe we 'feel' it? I wonder how because I doubt that anything like that frequency exists on the recording. Perhaps it's flatter up to 20khz as a result? Well .... No it's not so I'm not sure about these kinds of figures that are quoted other than sales speak.
The K812 is a really nice headphone though and is better built I guess due to more metal in its construction but the K712 is as close as dammit in sound and actually has a slightly more present bass that goes extremely deep. Not at anything like the same levels as my th900 but it is actually there, whereas the K701 wouldn't attempt to play much down there.
I wonder whether AKG have listened to critics and done some tweaking to the voicing?(like Senn did with the HD650). I have felt that the K550 has become slightly smoother over time as well. I have bought two recently for students and both seemed better than mine.
The k712 retails at around £260 which is similar to the hd650 and the k812 goes at around £940. Quite a difference in price, but it sure makes the K712 look like a good buy if you compare.
I'd say that the K712 is a great alternative to the hd650 if you want a lighter touch sound with more air with the difference that the low bass imo is actually better than the Senn without the Sennator.
The big problem is that most people can't hear them both to compare in order to help make that decision but the K712 imo is a great headphone. I may borrow one for a more extended listen.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 18:01:14 GMT
The price of the K812 is even more of a joke now then. Good review that's helped me cross another off my list.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 15, 2015 19:52:54 GMT
AKG have made such a gap between the two, Gordon that in terms of expectations, you'd want the clarity of the HD800. I did a quick listen with the HD800 as well and frankly, it is better in that it seems more even in the treble where the K812 seems less 'analytical' but also slightly less refined. My guess is that the treble has some good wobbles in spite of the claims that it goes up into bat territory.
So my expectations were for something more like an HD800 but if I'm honest, the K712 is close. It also has quite a top but there seems to be more body in the sound. The K812 is a really good headphone but I also take price into consideration; especially at that level. The K712 seems more like a good deal to me where you get the AKG openness with a tad more weight in the bass. It goes down a very long way as well, but not with the volume of the th900 which I really like a lot.
Given that it sells at between a third and a quarter of the price, the K712 seems to be a sweet spot for the money. Its frequency response is kind of similar to the hd800 as well which surprised me but it just seems more musical sounding with the bass.
I'm going to try the K712 for a longer time. For me, the hd800 might become very fatiguing although the open nature of its sound is quite amazing actually. I'd say that the imaging is spot on, but the tone is slightly off in the top imo. The k812 is kind of similar but a little more musical. The treble seems less smooth to me.
That leaves the K712 at a lot less money. The more I hear from high end headphones, the less inclined I am to buy one actually. Something makes me feel that there is a kind of barrier being declared at around £900 where there are major claims being made but in reality, there are glaring faults which I'm not prepared to accept at the price. For instance, the treble of the hd800 and (I'm sorry to say) the crap paint job which ultimately scratches away when the headphone becomes older. At that price, I expect it to sound excellent, be very comfortable and be durable. I can't fully accept the k812 top end, but I am being very picky here. It is probably a better headphone than the K712 but on the head, not really by as much as you'd think, given the difference in price.
I can accept a little treble roughness in the relatively cheaper K712.
While I'm at it .... The hd650 also has its quirkiness, although by today's standards, it's more like mid fi price now. The lack of really low bass is problematic to me. Once you get a proper, well defined sub-bass, you really miss it in headphones. Not many do it well. The Sennator is an answer, although distortion levels will be increased, which makes me wonder whether it was rolled away on purpose because of this. Also, the hd650 has a crap paint job on the band where it tends to flake away. Plus the pads seem to flatten out quite quickly, so that the sound does alter a bit with time.
The th900 is a wonderful headphone, but not flat. Big bass and strong top. Perhaps u shaped fr I think. For me, it's like a big pair of speakers so I can accept its sound pretty easily. Its Achilles heal is the daft nut that holds the cups on. Apparently, it's prone to coming off. The shiny finish is beautiful but tbh, not really that practical in terms of keeping it pristine. I do like the th900 though for its sheer entertainment, musical presentation and deep bass.
I'm lucky to have a friend who is a dealer but he wouldn't ket me hold on to all three headphones, which is what I would have liked to have done to test long term feelings with my own very varied files. So I'll go longer term with the K712 because if anything, that is the one I'd keep given my misgivings about the treble of the hd800 and the relative raggedness of the treble on the K812. I can't accelt those kinds of flaws in headphones hovering around £1,000. I'd rather buy four hd650's!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 19:59:15 GMT
Matt was asking over in the Ember thread if anyone can comment on the Ember with the HD 800's. What do you think?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 15, 2015 20:09:36 GMT
My guess is that the Ember might help to soften the top end up but I also have a feeeling that the hd800 may reveal tubey noises up there all too easily. Hiss, buzz would be picked out like a laser, I think. Personally, I'd go for a high end ss amp because of that.
Having said that, I'm sure that many might be using an hd800 with an Ember and it works fine. I tend to focus on noise by habit and for me, it might be a problem. I'll be trying the K712 with Ember and Polaris so that will also be a bit laser like I think as well.
We seem to be judging headphones more and more now by the price level rather than just sound I think and actually, some of the lower ones do a great job by comparison. One that always comes to mind is the K612. It's a bargain at around £90. I was listening to one today and it really has a lot going for it.
If I felt hard up, that's the one I'd go for. (Plus a new K550 ... Not an older one) seeing that I'm a tight old basket, the K712 is high end sounding enough for me at around £260. Go beyond my magic £300 and I need something good then for real. Otherwise, I'd rather have two cheaper headphones!!
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z3d
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Post by z3d on Jul 15, 2015 20:35:03 GMT
Interesting Ian.
Have you also the opportunity to listen at Beyerdynamic T1 from your friend dealer?
Back to AKG 712, how are the mids compared to Senn's HD600/HD650?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 15, 2015 21:31:19 GMT
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z3d
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Post by z3d on Jul 16, 2015 16:13:24 GMT
lol yes, quite comparable! And what about the beyer T1? I think T1 and HD800 are quite interesting options in the 800-950€ price bracket because if you want something better you have to spend around 1400-1500€ for a pair of Hifiman HE-6 or Ether and that means 450-600€ more money that's quite huge to me. What I'm asking myself is if this difference in price is worth it, considering that all those 4 headphones are already the best to me in their price bracket.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 16, 2015 17:48:24 GMT
Haven't heard the T1. I'd like to though.
You've really hit the nail. On the head with regard to prices. Really, it's what I always look at when listening tbh. For me, there is a kind of barrier at £300 where I feel that once you go beyond, in reality, we're talking gnat's whiskers.
You read all kinds of things on forums and people describe 'massive' improvements, which when I listen, I hear small differences. In studios, I used a Beyer DT150. Not exactly boutique!!
I do use my th900 quite a lot, but I'm equally at home with the Senn hd650 and portable, the Senn 585 which is just a tad softer than the hd598 or even the px100. I also use the AKG K551 quite a bit mobile.
So I'm quite happy listening to a £30 pair of headphones really along with a £900 or more pair!!
There are of course, many people who are quite prepared to lay out big money for the small improvements but my feeling is that the companies have set a new 'standard' kind of price for high end headphones. It's not really associated with how much they cost to make either. The standard is now about £1,000 or just over whereas £300 used to be perfectly good. Maybe £500 at a stretch.
The frightening thing is something like an ath ad2000 is now a ridiculous price. I hated it. Now I wish I'd kept it since it sells at such a daft price now. I am quite suspicious of both the claims that companies make and the price of headphones.
For instance ... The K712 is quoted as going up to nearly 40khz. I just wonder why so high? Also, there is no reference to how far down in volume 40khz actually is!! It's not really something that we're going to hear anyway so it's kind of irrelevant information and just sales hype.
The headphone market has turned upside down since the 70's with regards to marketing and pricing. Technology has of course moved on massively but that doesn't necessarily mean massive expense.
I don't know how AKG see the difference between the k712 and k812 being so different in price. What exactly is so much more expensive on the k812? The price gap is enormous but on the head, as far as I'm concerned, the k812 makes the k712 a bargain which ought to really be at a similar price to the k702 since they are tooled up for the same parts.
In a way, hi fi people are their own worst enemy imo. They drive the market through demand and they seem to do it every time. The recent madness with the he1000 'beta' was a great example. It was (for me) like watching lambs lining up to pay out a daft amount (which I signed up for and then turned down) in order to hear a new headphone. I know that it's a hobby so enthusiasts are happy to do this, but something in me makes me feel that they are being pulled onto a bandwagon and it's happened so much over the last few years that the £1,000+ for a premium headphone has now become accepted as the norm.
For me, £300 is still the limit and after that, we're going into the realms of minutia really. There's always that nagging doubt though that you're missing out on something isn't there?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 17, 2015 9:49:32 GMT
Time for CRPH. Campaign for realistically priced headphones.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 19, 2015 22:00:47 GMT
I'm not around for some time but as a parting shot, I must say, the k712 is damned good. Almost Senn like with very deep bass. Tonally, very good. Warm and extended. Graph to compare with Senn hd800 and he500 ....... www.headphone.com/pages/build-a-graphThey're kind of close to each other. The K712 has a treble bump, but hey, we're talking £260 here. Compared with Senn hd650 .... Sub bass and more top. www.headphone.com/pages/build-a-graph
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z3d
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Post by z3d on Jul 20, 2015 17:45:39 GMT
How they feel about build quality and confort, compared to Senn's?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 31, 2015 20:38:39 GMT
Sorry, z3d. I'm all over the place at the moment and haven't got great internet access so I'm getting on when I can.
Comfort is superb. Nice big pads like the K701/702 and fit easily around the ears. Pads are quite firm but are memory foam and soon form a good fit. I've been using it all the time since getting it and I think the pads are deflating slightly now. The cups don't press as hard on your head as the Senns.
Build is fine except IMO for the stupid tensioning system using rubber bands. I don't personally like that arrangement. I have an old K601 and the rubber bands have worn out and stretched. To put new ones in means taking them apart and I couldn't be bothered. So I worked out how far down I need the pads and super glued the holders to the two bands that go over your head. Result is that they only fit me or anyone else with my size head so they are comfortable again now and don't slip down.
So the fix when it eventually goes is 4 blobs of superglue!!
Now I've used them extensively, I've decided to buy a k712. The treble is no way like a k701/702. It's more like a Senn hd600 treble but slightly more 'open'. Bass is much better than the k701 in terms of quantity and depth. It goes very low and gives quite a nicely controlled sub bass. It even works fine straight out from an IPod!! That surprised me, given that so many go on about how hard the AKG's are to drive. On a powerful amp it's even more controlled in the bass perhaps and obviously will go louder than an IPod.
It's a strange headphone in that it's the first AKG that I've heard that sounds like a Sennheiser with deep bass. It's very balanced and is a good match, if not better than the HD650 for some IMO. Those that might feel that the treble of the hd650 is a bit too laid back would like this one. It has a deeper bass than a stock hd650 and is,ore open but not glaring like the k701.
I' m quite curious about the k702 now since the k712 seems to sound extremely good to me, or like my k550, I've got a good one. I bought a k550 for a student and noticed that it sounded much better than my own one in the treble. I was very puzzled by that so I actually bought another one for myself and I hit lucky again. It sounds great. Deeper bass and less top than my original. The experience made me feel a bit wobbly about quality control at AKG but they may have made some sneaky tweaks to them since I got the first one. Mine was one of the first out of the factory.
So if this k712 is typical as far as quality goes, IMO it's a brilliant buy. I have a long straight cable, a longish curly one (for desks), a short Van Damme mobile onewith a small plug and another short Van Damme cable with a large plug. They can be swapped in 2 seconds so it can be used for all kinds of situations easily and the sound is really top notch. Even ok from an IPod without an amp. (Although I don't push the volume too much in case of distortion, but certainly useable. I'm roughly just over halfway up on the volume of a Nano)
No glare. Big and deep bass. Good mid balance and presence.... Maybe a slight recess. Very slight though I think.
One of my top performers now along with hd650/600, th900 and k550 when the TV is on!!! (And I have to use a closed headphone)
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Post by c61746961 on Aug 3, 2015 21:37:48 GMT
Have you got your K712 already?, if not, why not try the K7XX for 200 USD instead?, it's said to sound quite close to the K712, I have a pair and it sounds good.
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Post by jhelms on Aug 10, 2015 17:03:47 GMT
I have had the 7XX's since the first buy. I actually expected to take a listen and sell them as I never liked the AKG sound, however I ended up keeping them. Outstanding bargain, comphy and they look dead sexy.
I would agree with Ian's take on the 650 vs 712 (If the 712 sounds the same as the 7xx which is what I hear) The 7XX seems to grace the bottom end much better, with the 650 doing everything else slightly better to my ears. Very difficult to choose between the two but generally I do find the 650's on my ears more.
But for the price difference, with the 650 being 100% more, the 7XX is an easy choice
I do find the cups huge as with other AKG cans. My ears... I would think are normal size... they virtually swim in the cups. With the 650... there is mostly 1 listening position on your head. With the AKG's, they can be slid front to back, up or down a bit which... to my ears can change them. Takes a bit to find the sweet spot.
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