Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 21, 2016 17:12:05 GMT
Since playing around with the Fostex T50 mk3, I have become a little more treble concious since it is so easy to tune. With stock pads, I felt that four covered vents was about right and for some reason, it also seemed to make the treble less strident. I blame that bloody Nighthawk for this!!
Turning up a fraction soon brings the feeling of the treble back though and the headphone snaps right back into focus. My T50 is quite close to my modded T40 which also has a softer top end, but once again, turn up and it snaps in.
Now going back to other headphones reveals a very nasty, strident top end which means that I have to turn down quite a lot and unfortunately, it's most of the other headphones that I have. It has me wondering about treble amounts and whether we have perhaps become accustomed to very high levels of treble and listen lower in volume to compensate.
Having the treble curtailed slightly seems to bring more presence to what I call the 'clatter' area sometimes!!! You know, in the percussion department, you get all kinds of rattles and clips and bangs, which in a treble laden headphone become thin, mean sounds that are reproduced in a hi fi kind of way but to me just don't sound real. Having the top down a bit and turning up the volume reveals the 'body' in these kinds of sounds. (Or clatter) To me, it sounds more lifelike. Same goes for conga sounds. They develop a fuller drum body. Like there's too much information higher up that actually masks the treble 'body' of sound.
I first heard a similiar effect on some very expensive floorstander speakers. Treble wasn't strident (as my home speakers were then) but they 'clattered' and there was a real body of sound in the treble with no splashiness. Cymbals were more 'gong' like, which is how I hear them live.
On my T40, I sometimes switch pads to some deeper, angled hm5 pads. Result is that something up there is softened slightly, but it reveals more about the body of percussive sounds once the volume is adjusted for the different distance from your ears and softer top as well. (Only slightly)
It really has me wondering whether many headphones just have too much up in the top of the treble region which makes them seem very detailed but slightly synthetic in timbre as a result.
The only comparison I could make that maybe some might recognise is if you've been to a live concert of a band that you have recordings of. Live, the body of the sound is very much there but on recordings, they seem 'restrained' with less body. The recording is revealing but the 'body' or guts is missing. We then go for the bass and sometimes want it boosted. I've been finding that if you lower the top end, the bass comes up anyway, but the 'body' of sound develops more realistic 'guts' and to me, sounds a lot more 'live.'
I think the current thinking of flat still has some tweaking to go. More to do with treble response and listening volume as well, which affects how we perceive the bass perhaps. Once I hear that 'presence' in the 'clatter' and 'body' of the sound, it seems way more natural to me but I can't exactly place where in the FR it is. I can understand Tyll's liking for rolled away treble but it may not be as simple as that, but it gives more an idea of what I feel that I hear once the top is a little politer than so many modern headphones.
A similar effect to being at the back of a hall so the sound is thinner and more remote or closer and hearing more of the body of the sound.
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 23, 2016 11:07:18 GMT
You are so correct about the treble limiting volume through headphones, and when I'm at a live concert it doesn't matter how close I sit to the violins they never sound overly bright or cause fatigue. I have always thought it has to do with live sound being diffused by reflections off the walls, ceiling, floor etc rather than directed straight into the ear-and you can of course move your head to balance the sound between both ears at a live performance, unlike with headphones. The other thing is that a flat frequency response will presumably be perceived as louder in the upper mids because our ears are more sensitive to these frequencies. To actually perceive a balanced sound there would need to be a dip in the upper mids-at least that's my understanding of how the human ear hears the different frequencies. If you ever get a chance to listen to an NOS DAC with the DT100 you will hear sound that is very similar to big floor standing speakers or the concert hall and whose volume is not in any way limited by the treble hurting your ears. It may not give you every detail but as we have discussed before does a composer want us to hear every single instrument as a separate entity in the mix? Harmony is about a togetherness of sound. I don't think since the Baroque era have composers generally wanted us to follow the thread of each individual instrument in a horizontal manner, but you will know more about that than I do. When I read that HiFi reviewers hear sounds they have never heard before in a recording I immediately wonder if they are supposed to hear those sounds.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 23, 2016 16:18:08 GMT
It's generally accepted that 'flat' on a headphone isn't actually flat since there is a recommended shape that seems flat to our ears. So compensated graphs show us how neutral they should sound to our ears, but that assumes that the 'neutral' compensation graph is in fact correct. It has slightly changed recently but I still think that maybe there is a little bit more tweaking needed. I guess with time, it will be spot on for most people.
The most common things that people don't like in a so called neutral headphone is a lack of bass and often (like me) they want about 3db or so more than the recognised version of flat. After hearing the Nighthawk, which has an odd frequency response, my ears became very sensitive to treble. The Nighthawk does sound pretty good mostly and the soft top means that you instinctively turn it up. That in turn increases the perceived bass in any case, but it also does something to the lower treble area which begins to show the 'clatter' sound that I spoke of earlier.
The floorstanders that I heard quite a few years ago left a massive impression and also had me wondering what was wrong with headphones. It's that very same area, where percussion sounds clatter but not necessarily shriek with loads of top end. I sometimes use my dt150 which also has a similar characteristic in the treble which again, does allow that clatter through while not being edgy. Perhaps a bit too smooth up there though.
You are absolutely right Howard - go close to an orchestra and it doesn't turn thin. Actually, the same goes for live synths and guitars. They get too loud but not harsh, so for me, it seems that too many headphones have too much in the very top register which allows you to listen at lower volumes, but then lessens the bass presence as a result.
My Fostex headphones are similar to the dt150 in sound although they have more clarity I think. They seem to place things better and react very quickly but also, don't produce that harshness in the top. The new t50 has more of a peak up there but that hasn't made it harsh, maybe a little more presence but tonally, I think it's very impressive. I have a new set of pads coming for it tomorrow so that'll be a bit of fun as well with the tuning.
The other thing is that headphones that don't show big top end are often described by people as 'veiled' or boring. I do wonder if the boring bit is due to them just sounding 'normal' tbh. In other words, it's reproducing what we would normally hear. A big bass is impressive but if people mention it all of the time, maybe it's too much? Same goes for the analytical treble laden sound of the V6 or from what I hear, the hd800. They're just not 'natural'.
I also think that listening volume is very important as well and not too much notice is taken of it in reviews. Maybe because so much music is 'direct injected' stuff and acoustic information is added electronically, so it's false in any case.
That Nighthawk really changed my idea of treble tbh.
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 23, 2016 16:49:51 GMT
Too true-Last week I was sitting within 10 feet of the performers of Shostakovich's Piano Quintet, right in the middle of the front row, and my sound meter at times was registering 105dB, yet not once did I feel the need to grit my teeth at the possibility of the first violin eating into my left ear. Using headphones at home even 85dB can cause ear piercing violin sound with so many of my headphones. On the other hand the added treble does afford greater excitement, but it's at a price and maybe damage to hearing. I suspect we get lured by the initial excitement of added treble presence when auditioning headphones and then start to concentrate on the notes rather than the music.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 23, 2016 18:10:36 GMT
Absolutely. In fact, orchestral musicians try not to sound peaky or harsh, no matter what the instrument is unless the type of music they're playing demands it.
I just find the sound bigger and bassier when I am in the middle of an orchestra. That might be the closest to jeadphone listening as far as soundstage goes but the timbre is completely different.
Another thing I niticed years ago was that I felt that string tone wasn't reproduced well. Headphone gurus advised me to go for something similar to the V6 which is treble laden. Result is that strings can be very harsh and therefore not as 'silky' as they sound in real life. In fact, I needed to go the opposite way, with less treble. That 'silkiness' is there as long as the headphone doesn't screech.
The hd650 has got this right imo and yet that is the one headphone that so many went on about a veil. Probanly because they were so used to screechers. I've been in a small room on the oboe with a grand piano, playing the Poulenc Sonata and even at full belt, the piano doesn't turn edgy in any way. Just massive.
My hearing only goes to about 15 or 16khz these days in any case, but I still hear treble screech, easily. Thing is, you'd think sound engineers and designers might notice this .....
Maybe it's just me, I don't know.
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 23, 2016 19:56:03 GMT
Well Ian, I am constantly wondering if sound engineers have ever been to a live concert. What really irritates me is when lieder is recorded with the piano and voice on completely opposite extremes of the soundstage. The result is the soprano or tenor voice is only heard in one ear and that becomes very tiring, as well as being completely artificial. You would think the big names in recorded sound would get it right-but they are often the worst offenders.
Yes the HD650 is the best of my headphones at avoiding overbrightness, together with the DT100 and I think the newer version of the Senn, if provided with enough power, isn't veiled. Generally though the HD600 suits my NOS DAC better as it adds a bit more sparkle, but not so good with overbright strings.
I still use that wonderful Barbirolli Elgar Introduction and Allegro as a system test for strings. Wonderful, as you describe, silky Sinfonia of London strings, '60's recording too-maybe that tells us something about modern digitally recorded string sound.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 23, 2016 20:47:56 GMT
I've never understood why they do those kinds of daft things. I guess the thinking is that the singer is on one side of the room and the piano on the other, but I don't like it either. Funny thing is that I love the Albert Hall recordings and that place is a monstrosity. The mics are right up in the ceiling as well as directional ones normally down at the fromt centre with some hangers above. The recordings though are often nicely mixed together with no extreme left and right nonsense going on. Much more about depth which seems to come over well in the Proms.
Another effect that you hear in rock is placing different tom toms in a drumkit in different places of the hall. It means that the player has to play with headphones while the sound gets thrown all over the place. To me, it's a bety unnatural effect.
It does make you wonder about engineers. They are very experienced but they too will have 'learned' a sound. They often don't seem to count realism as important though if tou go by what they can produce.
I heard a rock recording today where everything in the treble had gross distortion. Through the whole album. That plus compression made it disgusting to listen to and the engineer doesn't seem to have noticed that he's basically recorded too loud at the source, so that even quiet sections contained the same distortions. On a v6, it's painful and headache inducing.
Maybe some must don't care.
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 24, 2016 7:28:23 GMT
You sometimes wonder if recording engineers do this nonsense just for fun. I have a recording of Winterreise where the piano actually moves from the far left to the far right of the stage over a time period of two bars. The singer remains central and it seems like the piano is going to slide off the stage. Really weird. To get back to treble for a moment, my late cantankerous old Uncle Henry blamed all this on the choice of 16-bit for the standard. He maintains this inevitably results in gaps in musical information compared to a needle in a groove and to compensate designers of speakers/headphones deliberately enhanced the treble to give the impression of increased detail. I don't know how true this is though.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 24, 2016 8:03:50 GMT
I remember when CD's started to be released that this was a common complaint. I bought one of the first Philips players and it did seem very treble laden, even though I was using some Mission floorstanders at the time. In fact, it started me off with cable swaps ......
I felt that it was vet glassy, and wasn't sure whether it was to do with production or the way that the format works. Then I met a 'friendly' engineer. They normally say very little about anything, but he actually agreed and said something about engineers being more familiar with analogue were using analogue techniques which didn't work so well with digital. That could well be the case since if you were recording anything loud or aggressive and it happened to be at the end of side 1 of a record (or the very end), they tended to compress it more in order to avoid distortion.
The warmth of analogue could be similar to tubes perhaps? Added distortions create that warmth of lp's.
Hearing some dsd files though over the past year has shown me just how good digital can be though. The solidity and warmth of the sound is actually there with way less distortion and huge dynamics. In fact, the first thing that I noticed was the dynamics of many of the tracks that I heard. So it kind of converted me!!
To think how much money I spent on turntables, arms and extremely expensive cartidges that I was frightened to use!!!
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 24, 2016 8:10:22 GMT
My first CD player was also a Philips ? CD100 or 150.(circa 1990). Definitely an improvement on most tapes but even using a Quad 33/303 and Leak Sandwich speakers sound could still be harsh on occasion. Maybe it's just as well we lose a bit of our high frequency hearing as we age!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 24, 2016 8:27:32 GMT
I thought as I got older, it wouldn't bother me, but actually it really does. I tested my hearing recently, since I used to have it done yearly because of my work and the dangers of loud noise. For once, I was sensible and used to wear ear plugs most times so my hearing was protected.
I can hear pretty reliably up to 15khz still, so that's not too bad, but hot treble does grate with me still.
Maybe the brain tries to put back what's missing, although above 15khz, it's mostly overtones rather than actual notes!!
I'm terrible at remembering numbers for gear. I had a Quad set up as well at one time, with panel speakers. I remember that the speakers weren't exactly bass monsters but they were great with imaging.
One of my favourite budget amps was a Nad. I had two. One was just 20 watts or so and the other was 60, I think. Eventually, I bridged the 60 Watt amp so it became around 100w and bought another and actually fed a mono signal to each. Every time I listened, balance had to be done manually, although the dials were pretty much the same, but that had a nice 'warm' tone that I really liked.
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 24, 2016 8:40:32 GMT
I was told my hearing was normal 'for my age' so I must have some loss at the top. Funny though, I have always been sensitive to harsh sound. As a young boy, loving to train spot, I couldn't stand it when a train engine let off steam and I had to cover my ears-none of my friends was bothered though by the noise. Even now I stick my fingers in my ears when an emergency vehicle siren goes past. Yet I do like my music loud. We are in Spain at the moment and am going to attempt a steep climb up a hill to a Moorish castle today. The views are fabulous but I will be knackered by the time I get back and ready for more music-probably in the bath.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 24, 2016 9:04:17 GMT
My hearing has stayed pretty well, in spite of my old job. That's one of the only sensible things I ever did!!! I'm very lucky in that respect.
Are you on holiday, Howard? You lucky fella!!! I love Spain. Especially once you get away from the Brits!! I'm not keen on mini Britain places tbh. Barcelona is spectacular but I love the ruggedness of the South and the remoteness of the desert area down there. There are some old film studios down there where they made the Good, Bad and the Ugly and quite a fe other westerns. They've become tourist attractions now.
I'm off to Norfolk soon. Going to have a break and visit some old work haunts and say hello. My wife doesn't want me to in case I want to start working again, but I think I'll resist. Beginning to enjoy doing just what I want to do every day now.
One thing that always made me feel a lot better when working in foreign countries was to always have plenty of familiar music around me. That's why portable music has been so important to me, even from the days of Sony Walkmans to portable CD players and the first (awful) mp3 players that came out with hardly any memory!!! Nowadays, we're spoilt for choice.
Spain is lovely at this time of year. Not too hot yet down in the south which makes wandering around so pleasant.
Edit: radio 3 this morning playing a piano piece. Right hand in the left speaker and left hand in the right speaker. Don't you just love engineers. On speakers in you room, it sounds like the piano is as big as your wall!!!
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howie
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Post by howie on Mar 24, 2016 11:32:14 GMT
Too hot for the steep walk so went to the coast instead for a lazy stroll. Yes it's really nice in Andalucia just now-clear blue sky today. Don't listen much to music here but I have a wireless cheapo system so I can wander around if I am listening. There is a very good Radio Classica which finds a happy medium between Radio 3 and Classic FM-closer to Radio 3 but without the more difficult modern classical stuff. When walking I just take my ClipZip or X3. I bought some fake beats from a Fuengirola beach vendor for 15 Euros. Honestly, they are quite good-better than my daughter's £200 genuine Beats. Piano really is usually badly recorded and it ought to be relatively straight forward. It's essentially a mono sound and the attempts to turn it into wide stereo is so annoying. There should be a way of allowing us to alter the width of the stereo image but I don't think amplifiers do this.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 24, 2016 12:10:20 GMT
There is a Phoniter amp that adjusts width and depth for headphones, but it doesn't come cheap. It is something that would be useful for those annoying kinds of recordings.
Well, it's grey in the south of the UK and rain is on the way, so I've stuck some seed into the lawn!! I've potted a load of plants out there as well, so the rain will get them established hopefully.
I bought a fake pair of Beats while I was over in Tenerife. Openly sold in a local market there for 7 euros. Daft isn't it? I'll be taking my X5 to Norwich with me since I have 256gb on it so you're never stuck for choice!! I did a lovely job in Tenerife actually, on the beach at a tourist place. The place itself was just a tourist nuthouse but the beach was lovely and it was great playing out in the sun there. It was a place called Las Americanas, but I stayed further away, closer to the volcano on the island, where they filmed Planet of the Apes. Actually that was one of the last big jobs I did before I retired and I thoroughly enjoyed it there.
I made a bad mistake in Spain coming home though. My wife and Lucy went on ahead of me in the checkout area but unfortunately, Lucy left me with her teddy bear. The officials pulled me over because of the bear and had a good squeeze, followed by a thorough search of me and my bag. They found a handheld sat nav and didn't know what it was. They were going to arrest me and confiscate the sat nav so I argued. I asked them to speak in English and they refused so I had to try and argue in Spanish. Just as they tried to take me into a room, my daughter ran back because she saw me and they realised that I was telling the truth and let me go with my sat nav. It was actually not very nice and I got quite an audience because I wouldn't let them take me in!!
It's always me ......
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