jello
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Post by jello on Oct 12, 2016 9:57:34 GMT
Perhaps HFM didn't want them to sound too good? Good to hear that they seem to be having the desired effect though.
It's a bit of a buyer's market on ebay at the moment as far as the HE-350 is concerned. The original pair I linked to got withdrawn with no taker's but there's another used once pair on with a Buy It Now of £90 (open to offers) and an unused pair sold with a winning bid of £72 last night!!! I'd have almost paid that just to have a spare headband and grills.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 12, 2016 10:17:46 GMT
Thanks for the link to the Hifiman pads, Mark. They're kosher as well, not just replacements. The smell of beef burger. They are a really nice pad. Comfort is good and they hold the drivers back without collapsing too much. They have taken the top edge down although I think there is still a slight peak on consonants but nothing like it was. The sound doesn't seem as 'precious' as it was with regards to the volume. I felt that these were better at lower volumes because of the top, but now, they bloom.and I am able to listen way louder if I want. I'll stay with these pads for a while with different recordings just in case I'm missing something here. I don't understand why Hifiman wouldn't have supplied them. It's not like they're expensive. I like the he350. Bass is deep and I think it's worst aspect is the treble, which funnily enough, didn't get to me that much. The mids are great. I'll do a sound sweep to see if I've lost anything from the topmost frequencies because I was hearing up to 13 or 14khz pretty easily and that is near the limit of my hearing. I might be getting to 15 or 16 kHz at a struggle maybe..... Might be a bit more mid bass though. I'll try it just to see if anything has gone missing. Odd .... the peak seems slightly nearer to 6kHz but not massive. Hearing it down at 12.5hz and up to 15kHz which is bordering on my hearing limits really so it hasn't changed fundamentally. I think the peak is less though. It's not whistling up there as brutally as it was. Mark, do you know how the focus pads sound in comparison to the leather? I know they're angled but a curious combination of leather and velour.
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jello
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Post by jello on Oct 12, 2016 12:16:33 GMT
No worries Ian. Analogue Seduction are an authorised dealer so any spares will come direct from HFM.
Hifiman themselves also sell various pads via Amazon Marketplace and Amazon UK fulfils the orders. No leather pads in stock though, hence the link to the dealer.
On the whole it sounds like the leathers are a good upgrade on the velours with not too many trade-offs. I haven't used those pads myself so can't make any comparisons with the Focus pads unfortunately.
However, I am about to order a spare pair of Focus pads (will likely try them on the 400s) from Amazon today so if you wanted to find out how they compare I could have them sent to you first and you could post them up once done? That way you'd only have one-way postage to pay.
Let me know if interested as I have your address already so could be with you tomorrow.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 12, 2016 13:01:38 GMT
Listening to further stuff shows mid bass is raised and perhaps something goes in the presence.
Went back to velour and it's significantly brighter again!! I don't know, I can take either. The leathers darken the sound. I wonder whether the Hifiman velour pads sound brighter on the 400 and 560 headphones?
Mark, please don't send them down. It's an awful lot of bother....
If you want to try leather pads, I can always send these up to you before you buy any.
I'm finding it very difficult to judge, since the detail in the sound stays, just a tonal shift I guess. Means I can listen very loud but no more is gained from the headphone in terms of detail TBH!! Better than k550 pads though.
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jello
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Post by jello on Oct 12, 2016 16:52:04 GMT
No worries Ian!
Appreciate the offer on the leather pads but think I have more or less settled on the pads I currently have fitted (with HE-560 the Kameleon dictates I use Focus pads so that's an easy one).
I've heard the Focus pads described as sitting somewhere between the HFM (p)leathers and velours in terms of how they sound so suspect the HM5 pads I have on the 400S may be quite close to your pads.
It is very hard to judge differences, particularly when a change to one thing might then alter your perception of another. And then there's audible memory which can be quite short and not always reliable (mine is like a drunk goldfish!!).
I sometimes think that the worst time to judge pads or new headphones is the first few hours because there is a tendency to over analyse things and focus on specifics rather than the music as a whole, which is not how we listen naturally. It's only when I stop doing that and find myself more passively listening that I can draw any meaningful conclusions.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 12, 2016 17:00:43 GMT
No worries Ian! I sometimes think that the worst time to judge pads or new headphones is the first few hours because there is a tendency to over analyse things and focus on specifics rather than the music as a whole, which is not how we listen naturally. It's only when I stop doing that and find myself more passively listening that I can draw any meaningful conclusions. THIS ! Sometimes it pays to use a 'known reference' to reset your hearing (HD650 on Kameleon) or to measure it when comparing. But indeed... when you listen to a headphone for an extended period more meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Really diggin' the HE350 filtered. Full / Warm, polite, non fatiguing. Not highly detailed but at least I am not 'missing' things in an obvious way.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 12, 2016 17:28:45 GMT
I agree Mark. You become so intent on fixing what you see are the problems that you often miss other problems creeping in elsewhere. It is important to have some kind of reference if you don't have a kit to measur the FR. It's very easy to accept sounds and as far as I go, I seem to adapt to most things pretty quickly and easily. Only two so far have caused me aggro.
Well, I gave it a go!! The leather pads or K550 pleathers take the top down but they kick in things down below as well. The bass goes no lower than it was with the velours but it develops a thicker sound which is more like a Senn sound. Clarity gets compromised although it is still going audibly to 15kHz. So the balance changes quite a bit.
Looks like the electrical route is the only sure fire way to get at it then.
The funny thing is that I do basically like the headphone a lot. It has a great deal going for it and my deaf ears can take that top without pain. Having said that, my AKG's seem positively warm sounding straight afterwards. That would please fanboys!! Even the K702 sounds muffled!!!!
The he350 has this nice openness to its sound that I really like but that might well be the effect of those top end peaks. Looks like bending the top half down overall lines it up with a flattish response better really.
Kameleon for a portable (although large) headphone seems a bit like overkill. I see it very much as a semi portable headphone simply because of its short lead, although it is open. Great at home; especially on an amp. I don't see it as a home headphone for listening critically at all.
Electrics it is then!!
Problem for me with anything fiddly is that I struggle because I have a missing finger and poor feeling in parts of my hand, so tiny things are very difficult for me because I can't always feel the bits!! I've even burned my finger on a cooker and only realised when I could smell it cooking.........
Might be an he560 next .......
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 19, 2016 9:51:32 GMT
Rabbit and I swapped HE350 so I could measure his and he would get to hear a modified one. Below the FR of Ians pair. Below this mine: As can be seen both have excellent channel matching and look largely the same in overall FR. Those that have a closer look will see that the bottom plot has slightly better response at 1.5kHz and it has slightly more treble energy than Ians pair. I don't think these small differences are very audible though. To me these sound the same. For those contemplating buying the leather pads here a comparison with the stock velours pads: Will modify this one with a filter as well and maybe play around with the ports as well. I think HIFIMAN already got the most out of this driver though. Now they also know how they can improve the treble. For now there are no plans for a Kameleon filter but may well make 2 'modules' for it. In case of the 'filtered' HE350 it would only add some subbass. For a stock one it would add subbass and remove the treble peak.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 19, 2016 11:30:31 GMT
1 - 2 kHz is a smoother slope on mine, Frans, where yours slopes away from 1.5 kHz. 1/2 kHz of better mids? Not a lot between them which is pretty good.
The leather pads on first listen give the impression that bass has improved, when in fact, they stick a big hump in there and possibly mask the treble sting quite effectively by balancing out to give a v shape.
I'm really looking forward to hearing the filtered version when it gets here.
The old Philips Uptown takes some beating though as far as smoothness and depth of bass goes. Been using that quite a lot recently.
There's a new Massdrop on the he350 if anyone fancies a go!!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 20, 2016 11:22:52 GMT
The mod is a no brainier!!
I just got the modded he350 back from Frans and it's now a really tastey headphone. Nothing drastic from what it was in the bass, but the treble ......... it extends up high and is very audible, without being harsh at all. For me, strings are always a good test. Some headlines are rolled away up top so that the very top is missing and strings sound syrupy, not silky. The silkiness remains on the he350 and it keeps the extension.
It's possibly still a bit uneven up there since I feel that on speech, they occasionally hit a hot spot, but it might be more noticeable because the headphone is a lot smoother.
I am able to listen louder so bass really looks beautifully.
It's transformed what I felt was basically a nice headphone with a bigger than Grado treble into something smooth and silky. IMO, Hifiman need to know about this so they can perhaps change the basic headphone.
Many thanks to Frans. I have a headphone that I really like a lot for its ease to drive, comfort and terrific extension for partial mobile use.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 20, 2016 17:53:09 GMT
Turns out the differences between Rabbit's and mine were bigger than I initially thought and require different filters. To make things more confusing... Rabbit now has my (filtered) HE350 and I have his (now also filtered). I also was curious about some other aspects of this headphone. For instance what happens when you add damping material behind it, or when you close the holes around the driver, remove the rear grille, add different amounts of toilet paper in front of the driver, break the seal. Well... below the stock HE350 and with the rear grille removed. Doesn't make any difference.. What happens when you seal the 'ports' on the baffle ? ... here too no difference, I didn't re-measure but the small blib at 35Hz may well be the only difference or a measurement thingy ? didn't care ... differnces are too small anyway. What happens when you add a bunch of damping materials (wool + toiletpaper) behind the driver ? Not much, 1dB less bass. As Rabbit's headphone didn't have (much) of a peak around 5kHz (around + 1dB) but more at 11kHz I figured toilet paper might work here. Stock, 1 sheet (3 plies) and 2 sheets (6 plies) of toilet paper. 3 to 4 plies may well be correct BUT also lowers the part above 18kHz too much which isn't the case when using a filter. It may have been placebo or bias but feel the treble and overall SQ treble quality was 'better' with a filter (somewhat 'fresher' and more 'dynamic') than with toilet paper. Finally I wanted to know how important seal is with this headphone. perfect seal, glasses, 5mm rod between the pad and testrig, 10mm (ballpoint) between the pad and testrig. In the end I settled with a different filter and ended up with this: Quite pleased with it and I think (going from memory) sounds VERY close to the one Rabbit has now. Filter used for this one:
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 20, 2016 18:59:05 GMT
A bit strange ..... are the differences manufactured on purpose or is it driver variance. At the price .... variance? This also may account for different people writing different things regarding the treble. Most say the same things about the bass.
While mine was bright, I could put up with it. I prefer the filtered one though, although it does have some kind of 'hot spot' in the treble. Certain sibilant sounds seem to set it off, depending on how close the speaker is to the microphone. Almost like 'ringing' but your plots show no ringing. So treble is still uneven but way more pleasant
Have you still got the old graph of the one you sent to me Frans? Superimposing yours and mine will show how close they are now.
I love the treble extension in these in spite of it being a little ragged. Very open sounding. Bass drop off is quite disappointing though. 10db down at 20hz? And falling from 80? 100 to 1kHz looks good though doesn't it?
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Post by Mr Trev on Oct 22, 2016 15:29:16 GMT
There's a new Massdrop on the he350 if anyone fancies a go!! Sweet, but I might just look for a good deal on a used pair. After doing some quick math, after shipping and converting our garbage currency the price pretty much doubles… Also see though that the AKG 553 are also being redropped for an extra $20 over the 350s… worth the extra cash?? (although this'd be another case of trying to find a used deal)
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 22, 2016 17:06:55 GMT
K553 is a slightly warmer k550. Some don't like it, but I find it ok. Still a bit toppy, but one of the most open, closed headphones I've heard!! I think both are good, but technically, the k553 might be more resolving.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Oct 23, 2016 17:15:21 GMT
it is tempting to buy the set Frans is currently selling. finding it hard to justify though because i have just ordered the Kameleon and 3 filters. so basically i will have 2 new headphones when that lot arrives! ( 2 because my lcd2 is already filtered). sure someone will snap them up!
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