Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 13, 2016 23:54:53 GMT
I went to the Orlando Guitar Centre today. Absolutely fabulous. Lucy tried out all the drum kits, Helena bought a load of kiddy percussion for her business and I tried all the keyboards and headphones. Did a mini performance in the shop demoing keyboards and was rewarded with an amazing deal on an m100.
It's built like a tank. Good isolation and comfortable. Detachable lead (orange) that can go on either side. It's a woven cloth exterior so non-microphonic. It also has another lead for another headphone to be connected at the same time.
The sound is extremely good. Slightly raised bass but clarity througout is really lovely. Mids are perhaps slightly recessed. Here's the weird part - listening to Jethro Tull sounded really smooth and suddenly, almost detached out of the mix came this really powerful triangle with an unbelievably realistic ding.
I'm not sure yet what these retail in the UK for, but they are a really good headphone. Smooth and really solid sounding. I'll do some extended listening but I can hear that these are definitely keepers. Better than the Sony MDR 1a IMO because the bass is way better controlled and it seems more balanced throughout and very non fatiguing.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 14, 2016 15:11:35 GMT
I had a look at Tull's review and I think he nails it for me. Not a flat headphone. Boosted bass. Treble peak at 10khz - I do wonder if that's actually why the triangle rang out for me with the Jethro Tull album.
Tyll labels it as bass head headphone. For me (who enjoys a healthy bass) it seems perfectly fine. It is raised but not overpowering at all. He measured it as 8db up. For me, 3-5 is normally pretty good, but these seem OK.
Apparently, Vmoda sent out loads of differently voiced m-100 headphones and they continually came back to the current sound as the most preferred. I think Senn did the same with the hd650 at the start.
It is a really fun headphone IMO and is smooth and punchy sounding. Tyll also refers to the Momentum as being more neutral. I'm not so sure. I find the Senn quite 'flavoured' sounding.
Tyll also mentions design features with the m-100 that had me looking at them and thinking ..... Oh yes .... I hadn't noticed.
Ie....
Safety features of having a 45 degree plug. Plug has a 'pressure' point to push it in straight. Very tough, detachable cable. Having the phone mic higher up than the control button. No rubbing sounds on mic and yet control is easy to get at. Plug on other earcup socket makes matching of the two sides much better. (It actually works) Beautiful folding mechanism that Tyll raved about. One of the smallest packages for a headphone with largish earcups. Custom plates .... put your ID or name on them? Very comfortable head strap that balances its weight well. Bomb proof design. Strap can be really abused with no effects a minimum of 10 times.
Let alone its really 'fun' sound.
It has a lot more going for it than I first thought tbh.
Tyll also has it on his Wall of Fame. I can see why.
Worst thing ..... They sound damned good loud and it's too tempting!!!
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jello
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Post by jello on Aug 15, 2016 10:05:28 GMT
I got a chance to briefly try Gordon's pair when I met up with him last year. Sounded really good. In fact a lot better than the Momentum 2.0 that I'd just received that morning I liked the bass on them but as you say the mids take a bit of a backseat. Not warm sounding either and by comparison the M2.0 sounded cloyingly warm. I'm a sucker for neat design touches so of course the thing that impressed me most was the excellent folding mechanism (very well engineered) and just how small a size they fold down to. You'd be hard pressed to break them as you say. I've heard a few folk complain about noise leakage and comfort with the stock pads (quite small or shallow I think?). Gordon had bought some of the optional XL pads and I have to say I found those really comfy and they seemed to isolate well enough. UK prices have always been terrible on the M100 so I am sure you got a good deal, discount or no discount. Amazon UK currently want £237 for a pair, although I've regularly seen them listed for a lot less on their other EU stores (£150ish perhaps...at least when the Pound was doing well).
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 15, 2016 12:27:21 GMT
I did a lot of reading about the m-100 on HF, and it seems there was indeed a great deal of discussion and trials before its release. Val tried to get some form of consensus from HiFi people as well as DJ people in order to produce a headphone that most are happy with.
I like its warmth and it certainly has a bass kick for DJ people. Excellent with e!ectronic music. Design is fabulous.
I'll compare it with the Momentums when I get home. From memory I think the bass might be on similar levels as the Momentum onears.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 21, 2016 11:28:48 GMT
After a quick comparison session this morning, I'm finding the m-100 relatively excellent. Better than I thought over in Florida. It's sound is bass focused. Imaging depth actually does get conveyed. It's a relatively 'thicker' listen than many others. Although 'thicker', the sound is closer to you. Middle image is pinpointable and rock solid. Works for me now at pretty much any volume.... Before, I felt that it needed to be louder. Inner rhythms of rock bands become very obvious and well presented. I've noticed inner rhythms and counter rhythms going on that I've not particularly noticed before. That may be partially due to the raised bass which is also very lively and follows fast bass lines with ease. Momentum Over Ear 2 - is a match, with less bass, although sounds seem further away. Momentum On Ear - closest in sound with a big bass, but again, the sound is further away and less focused. Sony mdr 1a - more spaced out sounding and lighter sounding than the m-100. More distant as well. The m-100 bring sound very close to you, almost like Grados do, but no grating treble. It's really focused and precise with its imaging which I personally find to be excellent. The sound is kind is Senn like in treble quantity and with the closeness and imaging, you get a very detailed kind of picture; especially working out where the sounds are. I do feel that pinpointing sounds is excellent on these, in spite of being closed. Presence and closeness of the music is obvious when you switch to other headphones. They are in your face and tonally, they have the biggest bass and possibly warmest sound of the lot while still somehow retaining the closeness. I think these are actually better than I first thought and are more useable as well, with other types of music than electronic or content that works with big bass. Bassoons for some reason focus like a pin ***. I have no idea why. They sound kind of contained in a bubble which is precisely placed in the stereo image. It's quite weird how these headphones lock images in. Question is whether they are worth the UK price. I had a look and got a shock. I paid $99.99 but that was a favour, which is why I bought them. UK price is over £200 which puts them on a level with the Momentum, which I also like. The choice may well come down to bass preferences. It has a big bass but it's not a 'bad' bass and doesn't seem to get in the way. It makes music seem closer than the Momentum. A shade darker but very precise with imaging. At the moment, my preference is the V-Moda because it's fatigue free, intimate and built like an army tank. I can live with both but the closeness of the sound is just more appealing to me. If you don't like a bass that's raised, you'd probably not like them but if you can get past that, the imaging (even with acoustic jazz) is extremely good. That's one thing I always struggle with on headphones, but not on these. Other headphones also seem to sound more distant and slightly anemic by comparison! These sound very rich and fulfilling. Perhaps there is a difference between Hifi listeners and muso types in what they naturally veer towards as well? Val, who designed these is an American/Italian DJ. He needs bass so that the sound in the headphone pushes out the live speaker sound which develops an enormous amount of bass in room. I've played in many venues and in live work, bass is always deeper and bigger than headphones. (Not speakers) whether that's because there's no physical impact on the body or not, I don't know, but I've always heard big bass live and not on headphones. In studio work, engineers even push up the bass of the dt150 very often to give the right feel to the players while they overdub so maybe musos miss that kind of bass? The Vmoda is 8db up in the bass (measured) which is a lot and yet to me, it sounds natural and doesn't dominate. Does that qualify me as a basshead? perhaps I ever towards the 'feel' of music while a more Hifi minded person looks for space and clarity. I'm not sure since I don't have the same feeling with speakers. Also, it takes me straight back to the ever asked question .... What is flat? It's a reference but have we actually found it yet? Tyll is on the ball with his questioning of compensation curves IMO. He is in fact question what reference flat is. So, would I buy them at UK price? If I didn't own the Momentums, yes. If I had the Momentums, I'd probably stick with the Momentums although I think I prefer the bass and warmth of these TBH.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Aug 21, 2016 12:36:10 GMT
I listened to the V-Moda LP2 (and Meze Classic 99) and headphones like the edition X, latest LCD2 (quite different from the old ones) and will be listening to a lot more of those including the HD800S, Elear and Utopia (once the shop has them)
They also have the on-ear momentums which the owner feels aren't that bad when listening to them exclusively. On direct comparison with better headphones they immediatly show their faults.
I preferred the Meze over the VModa. The Vmoda's are 'DJ and youth' headphones and do that well (lots of bass, also bleeding in the lower mids a little) The Meze is 'nicer' to listen to. I didn't feel the Vmoda is a great headphone but admit to have been listening to reference material during the day. Personally I think the HD662-EVO sounds better (more hifi) than the Vmoda. The meze is warmer than the HD662-EVO and very close to the modified Philips. 300 Euros is too much for the Meze although they do look nice.
+8dB is almost basshead. Bassheads like 10-15dB extra bass.
The weird thing is the brain gets used to elevated bass and after a while you don't hear it that way. You need to reset the brain with a known reference for a while if you want to undo your head's calibration IF you want that.
'Flat' is a topic of discussion. Writing an article on it.
Tyll has applied the wrong calibration from day one and needs to re-do all of his pdf's IF he wants to show 'audible flat' as a horizontal line. That is not what Tyll is doing right now. He is trying to figure out what the different dummy heads measure (same headphone different RAW measurements) and what 'compensation' is needed to create plots that have a high relevance to perceived SQ. Tyll likes a warm signature closer to but different than the OW curve. The OW curve has nothing to do with OW compensation in that the compensation (the plots you see everywhere) ONLY applies to their HATS.
Personally I am convinced those HATS are unsuited to measure headphones due to the CHANGES the HATS make which needs to be undone again which would involve steep filtering at several places.
HATS are usefull for measuring speakers in a room, that's about it.
What is flat to person A is not flat to person B for a number of reasons.
For instance, when my plots show a horizontal line it is not what is actually measured. There is a 5dB subbas boost already. So when I measure something 'flat' it would show a gradual 'sloping' curve on measurement systems like those of SBAF for instance. Their 'speaker like room curve' measuring headphones (which they feel would be neutral sounding) would show a horizontal line on my plots.
The most 'reference' quality headphone (where one can calibrate ears and equipment on) would be HD650 on Kameleon. So 'flat' would be: equal amplitude measuring, no Pinna with a few dB bass boost and on the correct listening level which would be around 80 Phon on average.
As said.. a popular item these days and writing something down about this subject. Not going to be a short article though..
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Aug 21, 2016 12:36:28 GMT
I listened to the V-Moda M100 (and Meze Classic 99 as well as Audeze Sine) and headphones like the edition X, latest LCD2 (quite different from the old ones) and will be listening to a lot more of those including the HD800S, Elear and Utopia (once the shop has them)
They also have the on-ear momentums which the owner feels aren't that bad when listening to them exclusively. On direct comparison with better headphones they immediatly show their faults.
I preferred the Meze over the VModa and Audeze Sine. The Vmoda's are 'DJ and youth' headphones and do that well (lots of bass, also bleeding in the lower mids a little) The Meze is 'nicer' to listen to. I didn't feel the Vmoda is a great headphone but admit to have been listening to reference material during the day. Personally I think the HD662-EVO sounds better (more hifi) than the Vmoda. The meze is warmer than the HD662-EVO and very close to the modified Philips. 300 Euros is too much for the Meze although they do look nice.
+8dB is almost basshead. Bassheads like 10-15dB extra bass.
The weird thing is the brain gets used to elevated bass and after a while you don't hear it that way. You need to reset the brain with a known reference for a while if you want to undo your head's calibration IF you want that.
'Flat' is a topic of discussion. Writing an article on it.
Tyll has applied the wrong calibration from day one and needs to re-do all of his pdf's IF he wants to show 'audible flat' as a horizontal line. That is not what Tyll is doing right now. He is trying to figure out what the different dummy heads measure (same headphone different RAW measurements) and what 'compensation' is needed to create plots that have a high relevance to perceived SQ. Tyll likes a warm signature closer to but different than the OW curve. The OW curve has nothing to do with OW compensation in that the compensation (the plots you see everywhere) ONLY applies to their HATS.
Personally I am convinced those HATS are unsuited to measure headphones due to the CHANGES the HATS make which needs to be undone again which would involve steep filtering at several places.
HATS are usefull for measuring speakers in a room, that's about it.
What is flat to person A is not flat to person B for a number of reasons.
For instance, when my plots show a horizontal line it is not what is actually measured. There is a 5dB subbas boost already. So when I measure something 'flat' it would show a gradual 'sloping' curve on measurement systems like those of SBAF for instance. Their 'speaker like room curve' measuring headphones (which they feel would be neutral sounding) would show a horizontal line on my plots.
The most 'reference' quality headphone (where one can calibrate ears and equipment on) would be HD650 on Kameleon. So 'flat' would be: equal amplitude measuring, no Pinna with a few dB bass boost and on the correct listening level which would be around 80 Phon on average.
As said.. a popular item these days and writing something down about this subject. Not going to be a short article though..
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 21, 2016 13:34:44 GMT
I was very curious about the Meze, Frans. Again, high price though.
I had no intention of even trying the m-100 tbh. It was just the deal. It took a very long time for Val to decide on the final 'tuning' of these. They're not the same as the lp2 or m-80 apparently. I think the m-80 has even more bass!!!
Our idea of flat on a headphone is slowly evolving I think. It's also probably a question of what you expect as well. I think musicians who work live would naturally veer towards a raised bass where studio reference recording types would go for less in order to retain clarity.
The m-100 is very involving and not analytical, although stereo placing seems to be very sharp.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Aug 21, 2016 14:23:30 GMT
Sorry... I heard the M100 (not the LP2 as mentioned earlier and now corrected) because you had mentioned them and I got curious and was able to compare them. I mentioned the LP2 because of an earlier PM I received about the LP2..
The M100 is quite good sounding, just not typical 'hifi' which is what I prefer myself. Thought they were overly bassy (well suited for the intended market, i.e. beats, young kids and DJ's) and I found the upper mids below par with not so refined treble. The Meze was better but warmth was more bleeding into the mids for me. Not annoyingly so and can see why many (and Tyll) likes the 'warmth' and soft treble. I could live with the Meze but not with the M100.
Mechanically the Vmoda's are top notch. MUCH better than the Superluxes but to me the bassy yet clear character of the HD662-EVO is preferred. If only it were built as nice as the Vmoda...
Indeed its all about usage... the M100 will do great on a bus directly from a phone. Excellent looks, isolation, bassy sound... but is not really suited for listening to well recorded music with the old analytical 'cap' on. Flagships like Ether-Flow (open), top level Hifiman, Audeze, Sennheiser, AKG etc. are totally unsuited to be driven from phones or used outdoors but really shine with excellent recordings.
The latter may be 'flatter' but the 'Phatter' ones matter in other circumstances.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 21, 2016 14:47:42 GMT
That's a great saying Frans ....f!atter and phlatter!!
No the m-100 isn't an analytical sound at all. My head must have adjusted to the bass since my feelings about its sound have slightly altered since listening at home.
When I got them, the bass did feel overwhelming. Now I think I must have adjusted. The Momentum has less bass but I'm still more drawn to the Vmoda. It has a more focused sound and is more in yer face. Imaging is very c!early defined. I think they're a bit better than the Sony MDR 1a in their directness and imaging as well.
Build is amazing.
The O2 seems to pair very well with it as well. I think the O2 sharpens it up slightly.
I am very curious about the Meze. I'm assuming that you mean the classic 99. (That's an ice cream in the UK) They're not too cheap either are they? Only recently became available in the UK.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Aug 21, 2016 15:21:46 GMT
Yes, the Meze classic 99.. It isn't cheap. I would say it is tonally very close to the modified Philips uptown with slightly better highs. BUT to me the price difference is not worth it compared to the modified Philips. Looks and finish of the Meze is very nice though.
Personally for that price I would look at other models as well. The Meze (and M100) are good for portable usage for those that like warmer/bassier signatures.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 3, 2016 9:56:26 GMT
Two new cables arrived this morning for my V-Moda so it's now fed into both cups. I can't say I hear anything different, but will continue to listen just to see if there's something really subtle going on. Don't think so though.
Bass remains strong and treble slightly muted. It's quite a dark headphone, but still extremely nice to listen to, even with the hyped bass.
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jello
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Post by jello on Sept 3, 2016 12:26:23 GMT
HF: "night and day difference", "totally transformed", "it's like a new headphone!" "forget this one, the M-100 NEEDS a $500 cable"The reality: "hmmm, I really don't know....if I listen really hard I might perceive a very slight improvement", "...or perhaps I was just trying to hard", "nah, there's no difference/ What are those guys smoking??"
When you say two cables do you mean two separate 3.5-3.5mm cables you run in tandem (with a splitter?) or just a single cable that splits to L/R outputs further up?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 3, 2016 13:50:37 GMT
Sorry Mark. I wasn't clear. I bought two separate cables. One short one and another long one for tv. They're great for films with the bass power.
I don't get over excited about cables TBH. I always doubt what many say about these 'huge' differences but even Vmoda were joining in. At least I got rid of that volume control in the lead and now the cups are evened up with the same plug in each.
There may be slight differences, but I'm struggling to tell. Problem is that I don't have two to compare directly.
Still like them a lot too. Very focused sound. The Sony MDR1a is a bit more 'diffuse' sounding. Some might say, more airy but the sound stays locked solid in the m-100 for some reason and you are more aware of exactly where sounds are coming from. I guess a bit similar to Grados, where the sound is very close, but there is no treble sting with the Vmoda. It's quite a dark headphone.
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jello
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Post by jello on Sept 3, 2016 14:37:30 GMT
Ah, that makes sense. You'd mentioned finding the cable you were after so when you said two you threw me!!
My throwaway post above wasn't aimed at you btw. I know you don't buy into the OTT claims that are made.
The V-moda cable I bought was a straight cable without volume control and just assumed it came bundled with the M-100. Not keen on remotes on my cables either as the sound often seems to be degraded as a result.
I know what you mean about the M-100 sounding focussed. I got that impression too. The MDR-1A is a funny one because it is airy and diffuse sounding as you say and yet it creates an absolute wall of bass too, which bit of a guilty pleasure of mine. From memory I think the Sony might have more verall bass quantity / weight but the M-100's bass hits a fair bit harder (poor analogy: sledgehammer vs nail gun?).
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