Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 13, 2017 13:41:52 GMT
We can always hope Joe. Frans reckoned that it had a deep bass on first hearing which bodes well!
It can be very difficult to get a feel for any headphone sound from first reviews though and there will probably be some very quick ‘new boys toys’ like reviews at the start. Really, we need to see a FR graph from a reliable source or at least from a source where we can compare the graphs of a ‘known’ headphone and the new Senn so that we get a comparative view at least.
Hopefully, Tyll might get one so we could compare with his FR graphs of headphones that we know or the HD650 itself.
Sennheiser are advertising it as an improved HD650 so I hope that this doesn’t mean the HD650 or 600 might go. They didn’t do that when the 650 took off after the 600. They might possibly keep all three going in tandem since the new one is using the same kind of framework.
I wouldn’t replace my HD650 unless the sub bass was there. Ideally, with less bass distortion as well. I’d see that as an improvement.
I think that sub bass can be very subtle and on many speaker setups, I’ve heard subs turned up too high so that you’re always aware of their presence. Just a touch is enough and then the real bottom end will kick in when it’s actually there, rather than plant a thick blanket over everything like the Sony mdr 1a tends to do.
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fanda
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Post by fanda on Oct 13, 2017 14:17:47 GMT
Looks like the massdrop 6xx is back as well, this time with a 'shorter' wait time of 2.5 months. $200 is a great price for the 650.
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Post by ronzo56 on Oct 14, 2017 18:23:35 GMT
I'm with Frans on this. Personally I will wait for all the measurements, discussions and impressions to come in and be sorted out. Also I have an HD650 with sub-bass as well. So think I'll save my money for a Kameleon and HD800 filter. Upgrade not side grade.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 16, 2017 14:42:00 GMT
Jude Mansilla measured one and more importantly made a lay-over with the HD650 on the same rig picture taken from here: www.head-fi.org/threads/sennheiser-hd660s-finally-a-successor-for-the-hd650.862308/page-8It basically looks like it has less of a bass hump (thus more mids) and has a tiny winsy bit less treble. More linear (like HD600) but with less bass-roll-off than HD600. It sounded quite 'linear' to me. The present subbass I heard was most likely present in the recording itself. Probably used to show of the HE1 which has nice extended and deep bass. That's how easy it is to hear something when not using familiar music. It doesn't seem to have an appreciable higher amount of subbass but as the 'overly warm' signature is less the bass sounds 'tighter'. That and a very 'extended' song that was played may well be responsible for the short listen I gave it. I did hear that the treble was slightly subdued but sounded 'right' without any obvious treble issues. To me not worth buying it over the current HD650 as that one is far more 'linear' than the HD660S.
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Post by darkarn on Oct 16, 2017 18:45:42 GMT
Apply the correct parametric EQ to headphones that are rolled off in the subbass AND are able to reproduce subbass when boosted. Some headphones aren't really suited. Thanks, will find the time to test this out! Will the Beyerdynamics Custom One Pro be up for this task? Jude Mansilla measured one and more importantly made a lay-over with the HD650 on the same rig picture taken from here: www.head-fi.org/threads/sennheiser-hd660s-finally-a-successor-for-the-hd650.862308/page-8It basically looks like it has less of a bass hump (thus more mids) and has a tiny winsy bit less treble. More linear (like HD600) but with less bass-roll-off than HD600. It sounded quite 'linear' to me. The present subbass I heard was most likely present in the recording itself. Probably used to show of the HE1 which has nice extended and deep bass. That's how easy it is to hear something when not using familiar music. It doesn't seem to have an appreciable higher amount of subbass but as the 'overly warm' signature is less the bass sounds 'tighter'. That and a very 'extended' song that was played may well be responsible for the short listen I gave it. I did hear that the treble was slightly subdued but sounded 'right' without any obvious treble issues. To me not worth buying it over the current HD650 as that one is far more 'linear' than the HD660S. "It" as in the HD660S or the HE1?
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fanda
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Post by fanda on Oct 16, 2017 20:05:38 GMT
The smoothing and normalization applied seems quite arbitrary. If I had to guess, they did it that way because if they did line up at (1 khz,0db as is usually done), the bass part of the FR for hd660s will end up below hd650 due to the reduction in bass hump and spoil the 'optics' of the graph.
Just from the graph, it looks like 660S has slightly better extension (below 100 hz), lower mid-bass, slightly more mids and slightly less treble than the 650.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 17, 2017 7:09:16 GMT
"It" as in the HD660S or the HE1? Primarily showing off the HE1 bass reproduction. They used one source (laptop, don't ask me which or what player) and it was operated by the rep. It had USB connected to the HE1 and optical (the rep didn't have anything else) to one of their amp/DAC thingies. Again, I don't know the type number nor do I care. It had the HD800 and 800S connected and the HD660S Of course music with enough subbass and a linear (thus not midbass boosted) response makes bass sound less 'wooly' and tighter.
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Post by darkarn on Oct 17, 2017 9:11:25 GMT
"It" as in the HD660S or the HE1? Primarily showing off the HE1 bass reproduction. They used one source (laptop, don't ask me which or what player) and it was operated by the rep. It had USB connected to the HE1 and optical (the rep didn't have anything else) to one of their amp/DAC thingies. Again, I don't know the type number nor do I care. It had the HD800 and 800S connected and the HD660S Of course music with enough subbass and a linear (thus not midbass boosted) response makes bass sound less 'wooly' and tighter. Sorry I wasn't being clear earlier; I was confused over what is not worth buying. Is the HE1 not worth over the HD650 or the HD660S over the HD650? It feels to me that the HE1 is not quite well set up as compared to how it was during CanJam (from what I read); this sounded like they setting up the HE1 in a rushed manner just to show it against the HD800 and HD660S. As for my personal dilemma, I am finding myself siding over a Kameleon'ed HD600 out of price per performance alone. I am quoted about 800 SGD for the HD660S, won't be surprised if it gets marked up to 900 SGD. Meanwhile for the HD600, I need just 300 SGD for it (promo price at 399 SGD, can use vouchers to offset 100 SGD). A Kameleon kit (yes I will be more than happy to build it ever since my Ember!) with one filter module for the HD600 and the shipping will cost just about 350 SGD, totalling about 650 SGD. Sidenote: HD650 with promo is now 499 SGD but its page is missing from the online store of the shop offering this promo. I got a bad feeling about this :/
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 18, 2017 6:18:28 GMT
The HD660S also needs some correction so it seems. That one is also easy to do so when I have measured it a filter will be constructed as well.
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Post by entertainme on Oct 19, 2017 10:10:57 GMT
Sennheiser webshop say standard delivery 1-3 days. I'd expect them to have them in stock in europe.
I've recently listened to the HDV820 amp and found it very dark. It removes most of the treble from the HD800. Don't know what Sennheiser showcaes the HD660 with on the show.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 19, 2017 10:24:53 GMT
Have you heard the hd650? You might possibly have found that one dark as well.
Frans, it doesn’t look that far removed from the hd650 on that FR graph. Bass isn’t that much more extended either which is a pity. Maybe it’s just the way the bass is perceived with the small differences in the treble and slightly raised mids. Of all headphones, I’ve always felt that the hd650 mids were great tbh so maybe raising them makes the bass seem less bloated?
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Post by entertainme on Oct 19, 2017 11:13:59 GMT
The HDV820 is a headphone amplifier. I heard it with a HD800 in a hifi shop. It has possibly more bass than other amps.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 19, 2017 12:05:01 GMT
This could be caused by a higher output resistance of the amplifier which is not specified. The frequency range specification of < 10 Hz to > 100 kHz is meaningless as the cut-off points are not given. One can assume though that bass is not boosted nor that treble will be rolled off. Most certainly not in the problem area of the HD800 which is around 6kHz.
In Rotterdam the HDV820 was used (reasonably sure of it).
About 3dB more mids is quite audible.
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fanda
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Post by fanda on Oct 19, 2017 12:31:36 GMT
IIRC, HDVD800 has a "min. 16 ohm " output impedance, and that seems to be the same for HDV820 as well, according to this manual -> en-us.sennheiser.com/global-downloads/file/8823/HDV820_Manual_570794_0817_EN.pdfIf that is correct (i am not sure what 'min' means here - can output impedance be variable depending on load?), it shouldn't be boosting bass on high impedance headphones like hd800, unless it also alters the FR. Way too expensive and seriously, why does it cost more than their headphones? If an amp actually removes the hd800 treble bump, it is no longer producing a flat output... (intentionally altering FR).
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 19, 2017 13:57:05 GMT
The specs merely say that it is suited to drive headphones with impedances above 16 Ohm. That does not mean the output resistance is 16 Ohms though. Could be anything between 0.1 and 100 Ohm for instance. A higher output resistance will 'boost' the lows because of voltage division. The FR on a high output resistance will differ from that of a lower impedance amp. It may not be much but 1dB boost over a wide frequency span is audible. As the impedance rise of the HD800 is in a similar range as that of the HD800 bass boost will be about the same. 0 Ohm vs 120 Ohm[edit] just saw a plot made by Tyll with 100 Ohm and 200 Ohm output R and the 100 Ohm output R version had 1B more bass. Will have to measure mine one day...
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