oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 9, 2018 21:15:46 GMT
well i caved in and bought a "hardly" used Rega Exact cart from a member on PFM forum. the differences are huge, so i am not "cartridge-deaf". i was pleased with the sound with the Elys2 cart, but curious, to know how much it could be improved with an upgrade. (this is how you get "drawn in" i guess). paid just over half the rrp for the Exact, which is the top of the line MM Rega offering. bass is definitely deeper and more controlled, more detail in the highs too and noise level has dropped considerably.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 10, 2018 6:31:35 GMT
The Rega cartridges used to be known for their ‘smoothnes.’ They’re a good sounding make and their turntable arms were really good. I think cartridges and speakers give you big differences. As you go up, noise seems to become less of a problem and they seem to separate it from the music. Then you become almost ‘frightened’ of using it!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 10, 2018 8:00:32 GMT
Carts convert mechanical vibrations via a needle (shape is important as is angle) which is 'mounted' (way and bonding has influence on energy transfer) to a cantilever that must 'conduct' mechanically the vibrations. The shape of the needle determines which part of the vinyl 'walls' are touched. One cart can touch the walls higher in the groove than another. This means a certain part of the groove gets worn over time where other parts are not touched. Changing the needle shape may thus rejuvinate an album as the groove is read at another spot which is still virgin in essence.
How clean the needle and groove is also is of paramount importance.
The material/stiffness of the cantilever is of importance to the sound. It has a weight and thus a resonance frequency. That cantilever often has one or more pivot points which should not 'damp' any vibrations of the cantilever nor add resonances. It also has a suspencion with a certain 'force'. Too much or too little needle force and the cantilever (with magnet that has a certain weight) is not properly alligned with the coils reducing output voltage. Then there is the casing it is in which can have resonances or absorb mechanical energy in certain frequencies which is undesirable. Finally there are 2 coils which are inductors and together with the capacitance of the tone arm wiring (usually litze wires very close together thus high capacitance) and the RCA cable as well as the input capacitance of the pre-amp and its input resistance all create a peak in the upper treble in most cases.
Then there is the weight and stiffness of the tone arm and the way it interacts with the cart that usually defines rumble levels and bass response. Some carts are better suited for heavy arms, others for leightweight arms. Then there is antiskating which can pull the cantilever too much to the right or left changing L/R balance etc.
All of this differs from cart to cart so differences are easily found and usually audible. Some carts 'sound' more pleasant than others. Some carts are more 'accurate' to what has been pressed in the vinyl. A question of personal taste what sounds fine.
As Ian said differences are in the same ballpark as good speakers are as these convert electrical enegy back to mechanical. Think a few dB here and there which is quite audible. The differences between headphones is MUCH bigger though.
The better carts are usually as expensive or more expensive than the turntable and arm and can cost you more than an arm (or a leg)
In the end.. it is all a means to extract sound from a mechanical groove which is poorer in quality than any digital file in all ways conceivable. That doesn't mean it cannot be more enjoyable.
For me the downsides of vinyl are greater than the upsides so keeps my rigs on the attick. The choice of music is rather limited unless you have a huge collection of albums. Albums from several years back may not be available.
Buying secondhand vinyl is risky and can result in poor quality sound on occasions (bad cared for vinyl) That said.. a lovely looking rig in full view... rotating with a needle in a groove, the cleaning rituals, the handling, the feel, the smell of the vinyl/album cover, album art bigger sized, looking though a collection trying to identify albums etc. all make vinyl fun. On top of that, mostly the sound isn't much worse than a digital file thanks to our ears and brains being poor as analyzers.
That cart and rig you have is now almost at a maximum for the money spent on it. The next step up is going to be very costly and the benefits will be smaller than the previous step.
Perhaps investing in more vinyl is the best option.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 10, 2018 9:51:44 GMT
The biggest problem in the 70s was either the lack of knowledge or proper measurements as well, so everything tended to be hit or miss tbh. The serious Hi-Fi magazines (not What HiFi) were a goldmine for anyone seriously interested in vinyl and Linn became the game changer. The mechanical qualities of their decks was terrific really and then the technology used in the production/materials that were used in arms. They really were something to be admired and I loved that aspect of vinyl. When new albums came out, it was a real treat to have a physical thing with the cover art but even better was the quality that you could then get with decent gear.
My cartridge was worth more than the deck and that’s where it can easily lead you in the end for that quest for best audio quality possible. (For that kind of budget) There was also the great love of moving coil cartridges. Their relative ‘attack speed’ due (I think) to their lightness made them seem magical.
For the deck that you have Simon, I would be careful about moving up with regards to gear because say, a better cartridge would most likely highlight any mis-alignment, tracking, or distortion problems that the system produces.
My first inclination with all of my decks was to run up the cartridge ladder and there was a different time with each deck, where I felt the cartridge actually made things worse because they become more critical and sensitive to change. It’s so easy to jump into that loop of cartridge .... deck ..... cartridge ..... next deck.
Rega cartridges are nice because they are quite smooth and don’t highlight problems as easily as higher end ones do.
Wonderful as the Koetsu cartridges were, boy, did they show if anything was ‘off’ ..... even down to record pressing and quality of recordings.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 10, 2018 16:51:41 GMT
i will take your comments on board. what i am hearing with the RP3 is far better than any deck i have ever had. basically my only decks were not separates but part of those horrid "all in one" stack systems (toshiba or hitachi for eg) so you can see why i'm enjoying the Rega so much, its light years above what i had. so far i've spent around £450 including the cart upgrade and i am certain i could get more than half that back if i decided to give up.
one thing i would like to do is be able to A/B test quickly between my amp's phono stage and the Rega fono mini. i need at least another set of rca leads to do this but can you guys tell me if its ok to use a splitter on the deck outputs? i know you can on dacs but i understand deck outputs a much lower voltage. dont really want to buy another switch box if i can avoid it.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 10, 2018 17:45:50 GMT
You can't parallel inputs of RIAA amps because the impedance will be half the needed value and capacitance will become too high.
Also there is sure to be a small level difference between the 2 RIAA pre-amps so the loudest would have to go through a volume control. AB'ing without matched levels (within 0.1 dB) is pointless as the loudest will always win.
Best way to do a comparo:
Record the output of the preamp on a PC soundcard with different pre-amps. Then level match and 'normalize' the digital files so they are level matched. Make 2 separate files and compare the sound of these recordings.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 10, 2018 18:47:02 GMT
cheers for that Frans, i probably wont bother. i think i'll listen for a few weeks to the marantz, then try the rega. i doubt there is a massive difference between them anyway.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 10, 2018 20:54:00 GMT
There shouldn't be but sometimes a different input resistance or capacitance or an added series resistor can make a difference. Some RIAA amps include a rumble filter rolling off the subbass where others don't which makes a difference in the lowest frequencies. Gain differences can also be there.
RIAA correction should comply to standard which is designed to be created easily with just a few capacitors and resistors and should be within 0.5dB easily.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 12, 2018 19:23:24 GMT
i may be interested in trying a tube phono stage some time down the line, when funds allow. (used of course)
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 17, 2018 16:37:53 GMT
damn, just got bit by that upgraditis bug again. got another phonostage on the way, a Schiit Mani. got drawn in by the hype. they do seem to hold their value though so hopefully wont take much of a hit if i hear no difference. trouble is, it supports MC too . i was warned.........................................
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 18, 2018 6:09:10 GMT
MC is another thing again as well!!
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 21, 2018 18:52:03 GMT
well the Mani is in my system now. no massive "wow" moments( as others have mentioned elsewhere). biggest noticeable change is less noise. still it was a cheap unit, i guess.(maybe the phono stage in my Marantz is better than average for an integrated unit) it probably is better all round but unless i do the test as Frans suggested, i could not be sure.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 21, 2018 19:19:26 GMT
on a bit of a tangent here, i have one general speaker/amp question. as 8ohm speakers are easier to drive than 4ohm, in theory should 8ohm speakers perform better then 4ohm at low volume levels?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 21, 2018 20:05:37 GMT
on a bit of a tangent here, i have one general speaker/amp question. as 8ohm speakers are easier to drive than 4ohm, in theory should 8ohm speakers perform better then 4ohm at low volume levels? Nope..
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 21, 2018 20:29:57 GMT
on a bit of a tangent here, i have one general speaker/amp question. as 8ohm speakers are easier to drive than 4ohm, in theory should 8ohm speakers perform better then 4ohm at low volume levels? Nope.. ok that answered that one. does sensitivity matter, or is there no general rule of thumb?
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