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Post by gadgie on Oct 6, 2015 9:09:33 GMT
Hi Gordon, Maybe my post came across in the wrong way. I've had the Momentums for a wee while now. Now got the 650's through the Ember over the weekend. The 650's are really good and as you say relaxed. However on some recordings I seem to hear more details on the Momentums. When I changed back to the 650's I still heard the details, however on the momentums they seemed more clearly over the other musical instruments. Not saying the stuff I was hearing was better with the Momentums...if anything the detail sounded more neutral on the 650's....once I noticed it was there. Running the CD straight into the Ember.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 6, 2015 10:09:35 GMT
Could it be that you are talking about different (over ear) momentums ? The momentum 1 shows a -10dB dip around 5kHz where the HD650 doesn't have this. The HD650 thus hasn't the deep bass of the Momentum but does have more 'clarity' than the momentum 1, the HD650 extends further up top and is more 'refined' in the treble where the momentum shows a higher peak at 10khz but drops off quickly above 10kHz. The 10khz treble peak isn't present in the momentum 2 and the amount of bass is relatively less making is slightly 'clearer' than momentum 1 or slightly less bassier depending on where you come from. Also the momentum 2 has a small 'lift' in the mids making insturements 'pop out' slightly more but without adding 'bite'/ Momentum 1momentum 2HD650
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 6, 2015 10:14:12 GMT
Hi Gadgie,
I have both versions of the Momentum and the new one is actually slightly different sounding. They have slightly improved it so that it's a bit more spacious, not to mention the much welcomed more ear space.
It has an improved treble and I think it actually goes very deep.
I like it a lot and also use it most of the time when I'm moving around. I think that you are right in that some things are slightly more etched on it, possibly because it has a more V shaped curve than the HD 650. That is possibly why you think that you are hearing more detail on it.
In fact I don't think that there is really much more detail to be heard on it, it just accentuates certain things slightly better sometimes than the HD 650 does. If I find the hd650 a bit 'dull' with some recordings, I often go over to the Momentum which lights the recording up a bit more.
I'm 61, and a slightly raised top with a bottom end lift as well sounds better for me. I find a 'u' shaped frequency response slightly better actually.
The Momentum 2 is one of my favourite portable headphones. Extremely good.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 6, 2015 10:23:39 GMT
Frans, the second graph is for the 'on ear' not 'over ear'.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 6, 2015 10:39:41 GMT
So it is.. corrected.. but this changes my remarks as well.
Acc to the plots the momentum 1 is somewhat 'sharper' in the treble peak. Both momentums should have less 'clarity' than HD650
In any case it is good to differentiate between the on-ear and over ear. The momentum one over-ear is a 'half-on ear' for some people though, possibly breaking the seal as well. Pads of the newer momentum are said to be more accomodating for bigger ears.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 10:45:13 GMT
I like it a lot and also use it most of the time when I'm moving around. I think that you are right in that some things are slightly more etched on it, possibly because it has a more V shaped curve than the HD 650. That is possibly why you think that you are hearing more detail on it. In fact I don't think that there is really much more detail to be heard on it, it just accentuates certain things slightly better sometimes than the HD 650 does. If I find the hd650 a bit 'dull' with some recordings, I often go over to the Momentum which lights the recording up a bit more. I'm 61, and a slightly raised top with a bottom end lift as well sounds better for me. I find a 'u' shaped frequency response slightly better actually. I think you are spot on Ian. Even though the detail is still there on a headphone some elements just aren't shouting 'over here! look at me!' at you. Treble elevation (relative to mid range) definitely gives you the perception you are hearing more detail as you say. A bit like the sharpness setting on a TV I guess and sometimes the results are perhaps a bit larger than life. I know when Brian came to pick up the Ember he mentioned he doesn't hear the highs as well as he used to and I can relate to that, so perhaps the Momentum helps compensate for that somewhat. I think that's what he most appreciated about the Pandora when he heard it. Whilst not particularly v-shaped, more a gentle u perhaps, the mid-bass has less elevation than on the HD650 which lets the highs come to the fore a little giving a sense of clarity and detail. It's funny how as you age you find you can listen to headphones that previously would have had just too much 'bite'.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 6, 2015 10:56:25 GMT
Yes, I find that. I'm one of those people who actually use a Sony V6 to listen to music, where so many hi fi people just can't stand them on their head!!!! That always makes me laugh .... A headphone that can't POSSIBLY be listened to because it's so vile!!! I find it incredibly etched and great for some things and don't mind it at all really. I think once you see the graph, your expectation is that they will scream at you and that becomes the killer for some. If you go in blind, you adjust volume for presence and get an extra clarity up top which is useful for some recordings. Our hearing isn't taken into account by graphs. A headphone is an interface which needs to be matched with our ears.... Perhaps more than speakers because a headphone creates the room for us. Not to mention variations in timbre of headphones. I wonder whether the timbre of a headphone can become confused with perceived frequency response. So, a headphone with a 'lighter' timbre might be perceived as a headphone with no bass? There's a lot more going on in there than graphs might suggest. With the hd650, you hear more 'into' the sound where the Momentum 2 kind of throws it at you more!! That makes some things kind of stand out a bit more. Also, less sense of space in the Momentum. It's a bit like being in a smaller room where the sound is closer. The hd650 is more like a big room. Tbh, measurements of closed headphones don't always match what I hear as closely as open headphone graphs. It may be to do with the shape of the ear inside the cup and amount of reflections going on in there. I guess more to do with perception than graphic representations. I use graphs as a guideline most of the time but I do find closed graphs somewhat 'hit and miss' depending on where the graph has come from. Closed always look less accurate to me. I get the same with iem graphs as well. Recently tried the new Fiio/Dunu iem and they honestly give totally different sounds depending on the tips used. With Comply tips, there's a thunderous bass presence and yet with all the rubber tips supplied, it was quite mean in the bass. Closed headphones can be strange in the way that they measure sometimes. Might be to do with my thick rhino skin reflecting sound back and the ear flaps causing all kinds of things in there. I always look at closed graphs just as a vague guide. They often don't really match what I hear and the Momentum is one of them. To me, it sounds u or v shaped (only slightly, with more in the bass than top) and yet the graph show the top falling off a cliff. Maybe I just listen louder on it? However, every time I go back to the hd650, it always sounds incredibly good to me. Then after a while, you wander again only to come back to the Senn again!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2015 21:59:53 GMT
Those V6's have always scared me Ian. Maybe when I'm 60 I'll dip my toes in the water but for now I suspect they'd be just too much. I don't pay too much notice to measurements personally and it surprises me on HF when someone posts up a FR graph and another member will automatically dismiss a headphone as a result. Best way of assessing a headphone is to use your ears. I have to say when I listen to a headphone and try to imagine what the FR graph might look like I'm often quite far off the mark. Although I do tend to primarily buy closed back 'phones and IEMs so perhaps that's a factor as you suggest. Tips play a huge part in shaping the sound of an IEM as does seal. I also have a headphone I enjoy immensely but I'm still prone to wandering too. Variety is always nice but it's reassuring to know it's sitting waiting for me when I decide to repent my (many) transgressions Is the Fiio the same as the Dunu Titan then? I've been curious to try the Titan but if they're one and the same I'll turn my attention to whichever is cheaper.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 7, 2015 5:57:15 GMT
Yes, the Fiio actually has 'Dunu' etched on it!! I like it a lot but with comply tips. The supplied tips make it sound very clear but a tad brittle in the top. That makes the bass seem recessed. The Complies tame the top so the bass is more prominent as a result. Comply do make tips for Dunu but at the moment, I'm using some tx400 complies that I had here until the Dunu ones arrive. Fiio are absolutely open about the fact that they are made by Dunu.
Measurements and on the head can be very interesting. The graphs do need quite careful translation since as you say, if you're not good at understanding which frequencies are the 'key' ones that are important to our hearing, it's very easy to make general assumptions. Frans is particularly expert at translating them though and he often describes a headphone sound very accurately without even hearing them.
While it's a great skill to have, it can also act as an inhibitor. There are plenty of people who don't even try a headphone because of what they see on a graph. A 'neutral' response (whatever that may be) is more comfortable. I've also felt that less than neutral are also ok if the fr isn't too jagged, and can help sometimes with clarity when listening to certain genres.
For instance, I have a k702 and k712. They seem reasonable and quite neutral, but going to a Senn hd650 reveals a 'pinched' sound in all AKG's on orchestral music. To me, the timbre is slightly off and the sound seems constricted in comparison to the Senn which has a much fuller mid. The V6, which can be shrieky sounds really good as far as timbre goes with orchestral stuff. In fact, it's really natural and yet on other stuff, it screams. The V6 graph shows the 'scream' factor with those though but give it certain types of things though and they sound crystal clear.
I don't always care for the hd650 playing orchestral. The top dulls the shimmer from strings. Sure, everything is placed well and you hear the notes, but there is something not quite right with string tone. It lacks air and sparkle. I noticed that with the hd580 and hd600. They all present string tone that is off in comparison to hearing it in life. However, pop stuff is brilliant on them. The bass of the Senns really help (the raised mid bass) and you don't notice the lack of shimmer. Funnily enough, those little Pure DAB radios are the same. Many rave about those radios but to me, it always sounds like reproduced music because it lacks something up top.
There isn't one headphone I'd say is the one that covers everything and imo, there is something to be said about having a collection for different things. Otherwise, it's really a compromise I think. For some, it doesn't matter since they only listen to one kind of music, but for someone like me who listens to a very wide range, even the hd650 has its limitations and is a compromise with some music. Same goes for all of the others that I have or have used. I guess eq might help with this.
The Momentum is also a compromise but it does what it's designed for really well. Chances are, you would wear them outside. What seems to work with mobile headphones is for them to have a raised bass and sound nice at quite loud volume because of external noise. Loud headphones sound easier on our ears with the top shaved.
And that's the shape of the Momentum graph.
I think that quite a lot of hi fi listeners only have one application in mind. At home, in the quiet with high quality sources. In the real world, that doesn't happen so really, headphones need to be reviewed more with what their intended use is. A mobile headphone may not always be a laser for detail retrieval and it doesn't really need to be. The V6 is a great monitor for live work from a mixing board. That doesn't make it a good hi fi headphone.
The Senn is like a comfortable slipper. It sounds speaker like for the home setup. It's designed for that and Frans has managed to push them on further with his filter in order to make them emulate really high end speakers. They can produce more than what they were designed for but I suspect Sennheiser didn't produce them like that because of the measurement brigade.
I very much choose a headphone to match what I'm doing and what I'm listening to tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2015 22:51:04 GMT
Thanks Ian. In that case I might try a pair of the Fiio's when the local place gets their shipment in (end Oct). Just over £60 which seems quite a fair price based on what I've read on the Dunu Fiio Dunu. Some other foam tips that might work well are the Inairs 1. With the Heaven V I preferred them to the Complys as they seemed to boost the low end a bit less. They're also a lot cheaper (circa £10 for 5 pairs) which is quite a saving over a year if you consider tips need replacing every month or so. I do think you can find headphones that are good all rounders but I'm definitely a fan of squad rotation because of the compromises you mention. Having elevation or dips in certain parts of the frequency range can make a headphone magical when matched with complimentary tracks or genres but that can also be its biggest achilles when the 'synergy' isn't there. The Momentum is definitely a compromised headphone but when used in the way intended those compromises work in its favour for sure. The measurement brigade have a lot to answer for I think they must strike fear into the hearts of headphone manufacturers...the risk is they fixate about making products that measure well and follow target curves etc. rather than ones that sound good.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 8, 2015 6:28:26 GMT
I'll have a look for those tips, thanks. My new ones should arrive today so I'll see if they are any different. The ones that I am using jut out just a bit further I think, than the ones I'm getting today will so there is a small tube of foam for the sound to go through at the end of it at the moment
I have a strong respect for measurements but don't think that that is the be all and end all of headphones. While the graphs give a good guide they don't really show how the headphone will react exactly with your own head and ear shape. It's quite funny that companies don't seem to comment very much on what people say about the frequency response of their headphones.
There is no doubt though that the measurement people have changed the way that we regard headphones for listening to music and perhaps some companies have quietly responded in making quiet modifications behind the scenes without saying anything in public. It looks as though Sennheiser and Beyer have both done this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 7:01:34 GMT
Amazon is the only place I've seen the Inairs 1 for sale. Can send you a pair (medium) if you want to give them a try first?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 8, 2015 7:07:02 GMT
No worries Mark, thanks. I've already done it!! (Along with some hm5 pads for my t50)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 8:31:58 GMT
No worries. I could have helped you with HM5 pads possibly too. Have 2 pairs I have absolutely no use for (original non-memory foam & velour memory foam)... if you ordered either of them and can still cancel you're more than welcome to them
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 8, 2015 9:53:57 GMT
That's very kind, Mark. The pads are coming today and tips tomorrow.
The hm5 pads are excellent. They can be stretched to fit many headphones and come in pleather and velour. My t50 is getting a bit tatty so I thought I'd give them a try. For some reason, they seem to help quite a few headphones 'improve' and are very comfortable as well.
I use mostly comply tips on buds whatever the buds are. I'm more comfortable with the way that they take up the shape of your ear canal. The Senn earbuds that I use have custom moulds which fit like a glove. There's almost a vacuum effect when I pull them out!!
I think once an iem fits properly, they work reasonably well. Trouble is that I think many never really get a good fit and so there's just no bass. Iem's are the dodgiest to get the fit right!!
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