Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 30, 2013 12:29:45 GMT
Yes, a weird name for a headphone. I've never heard of this company but I think they've just formed and released this headphone. Quite a risk to take in a saturated market full of designer headphones, with each company looking at ways of being different from everyone else in order to get their position in the market. The Creative Audio Live 2! is another one, but one area that I never mentioned here is how kids reacted to them. Generally, not that favourable!! They thought that the CAL2 was too big on your head but liked the sound. (with its big bass and all that) The problem is that those blasted 'Beats' have set a trend for the way a headphone looks as well as sounds with regards to the bass in particular. We are seeing more and more headphones appearing with that enlarged bottom end since it really is 'expected' by kids. I don't have a massive problem with big bass as long as everything doesn't get swamped since I regard them as a speaker 'replacement' and kind of miss speaker like bass in many headphones that are loved by audio people so much. ie: I know that they're not accurate as far as FR goes, but I can accept it after a while and just enjoy the music without feeling it's 'giving me a headache because it's so nasty' or 'I can't bear it on my head' kind of thing. Those comments always make me laugh because I have seen it written all over the place by audiophiles who claim that headphones are so nasty, they couldn't possibly keep them on their heads. It smacks of snobbery to me and they're probably trying to impress their internet friends. To me, each headphone is normally designed with a purpose in mind as well as a target audience. If you don't like the target audience, then perhaps you won't like the headphone? Again, a kind of discrimination I guess. It is something I've always not liked about hi fi people. It almost seems as though music isn't important, it's the gear ... I really don't like that if I'm honest. We all focus on gear and less on music quite a lot. (me too) One thing I'd like to see DIYAH do is get into the music so that it is a different kind of place to so many other places who go on about capacitors and resistors!! Once you pass the snob bit, then you can look at these 'designer' type headphones in a different way imo. It was Tyll (Who I like a lot for his lack of snobbery and attitude) who first pointed these out to me. These characters are great for the hobby since they don't make you feel like an idiot because you ain't an EE or you know little about electronics. He's an interesting character who is interested in forwarding the progress of headphones into the more accepted area of speakers where measurements are taken and they are evaluated with this in mind. (In all their varying flavours of timbre which we seem to accept a little more) With headphones, perhaps we aren't as forgiving? I wrote about the CAL2 and he brought up this one which is why I got my hands on them. So they arrived and first impressions of what you get are really favourable: Walnut wood for cups, Memory foam cushions, stainless steel band and detachable cable. That is, the packaging even on the outside looks like quality. The ratchets to adjust the cups are silky smooth and even the box makes a good headphone holder in itself. There are two cables; one with and one without a phone microphone. The one without has plugs cased in wood and are really quite nice. The cable is flat, tangle free stuff so it is definitely aimed at the mobile market. (in Europe?) They are comfortable on your head and isolate nicely. The carry bag is like a linen bag - very nice. So the feeling of quality is there for sure. They look tough, are comfortable and are designed for portable usage. One thing about portable usage is that it can be useful to have a raised bass in order to help blot out external noises. It is also a (bad) habit for commuters etc to turn them up very loud to blot noise out, so the treble mustn't pierce your lugs too much or else they would start to grate!! These headphones do precisely that. Raised bass, rolled down treble and so they serve the target audience well for portable use. They crossed over with my CAL2 so I did a quick comparison. That was interesting. CAL2 sounds more diffuse and the AE51's are more 'focused'. They sound more 'direct' and kind of remind me of the Senn Momentum sound. A little more weighty and the Senn also has the treble rolled away. There are similarities when you compare direct. What this package seems to exude though, is quality in the build and the really unusual look. I'm not sure how the look would go down with kids other than eccentrics!! I really like the build quality a lot. My wife took to them straight away. As far as sound goes ... BIG bass, rolled down treble, focused sound, (I prefer the treble quality to the CAL2 which is more diffuse if I'm honest) They focus really well at higher volume. At lower volumes, they are little more distant than other headphones perhaps. I actually like them as a slightly more bassy Momentum!! They serve their purpose well as a portable headphone. Not a 'hi fi' or neutral sound, but entertaining and lush. I'm not sure what the retail price will be but with the quality of build, perhaps not too cheap? Mine flew 4,000 miles from USA. I can see them appearing in Apple stores and fitting in well; adding warmth to the cool Ipod sound. Well thanks Tyll for pointing them out. An interesting headphone from the USA. An alternative to the CAL2 albeit with less sense of space but a more focused sound that has more in common with the Momentum imo. Have a look at the sales guff .... (It's not me) Introducing the 51st Studios headphone by Accidentally Extraordinary. Inspired by wood-appointed recording studios and retro speakers, the 51st Studios headphone by AE opens a new gateway to a richer, deeper listening experience. The sustainably-grown walnut and stainless steel design combines robust sound, natural swagger and eco-sensibility. Robust Sound When have you ever seen a concert violinist play a plastic violin? Exactly. The 51st Studios is engineered to unlock the dynamic wood sound that musicians and audiophiles have long enjoyed. Natural Swagger Every single pair of 51st Studios is as unique as the tree from which they came, and the owner for whom they were purchased. The retro-inspired design combines stainless steel and walnut for a sleek but chic fashion accessory. Eco-sensibility Look good and feel good in our sustainably-grown wood! The 51st Studios headphone is made with sustainably-grown walnut for a crisp sound and a clear conscience. So what does it mean to be accidentally extraordinary? Everything.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 31, 2013 10:14:37 GMT
They sell for around $ 99.0 which is cheaper than CAL2 which is listed for $ 135.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 31, 2013 10:27:14 GMT
Not sure of EU price yet Frans. They don't always translate the US price exactly.
I'm not sure what I prefer tbh. The CAL2 sounds more diffuse and the AE more focused. One thing I don't get is that Tyll heard more bass on the CAL whereas it's the other way round for me, but the AE bass is better defined. Treble is also more focused than the CAL. I think CAL1 is perhaps more balanced.
The AE is pretty well thought out and does work well for mobile use. I did wonder about consistency following Tyll' s remarks concerning the bass. Wood is nice and they are ripe for padding out very easily. Or even use the skeleton for better drivers.
It's a good base unit to start from.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 31, 2013 10:41:00 GMT
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Post by MaN227 on Dec 31, 2013 11:02:28 GMT
its funny you should post about these , as a few days back I seen the very same video review and I was going to post asking about them here and low and behold the rabbit has them to be honest I was looking at getting a new set of cans to try in the 100 usd range, was looking at these and the AE51's here and the Audio-Technica ATH-M50. as they are about as close in price I can find the m50 99 at newegg. which makes me think of something else I wish was done a LOT more on audio forums and blogs, compare can's that are actually in the same price range. I just don't see enough of that, not saying u never see it, just not all the time. I personally LOVE the what i call retro look on these AE51's , walnut wood cups and stainless steel beats the helll out of cheap ass looking 100% plastic. I don't mind fat bass at all therefore my having the superlux 681's modded. the key to me is how flabby and loose it is, as I do not like when it gets to that point. very deep and clean, makes me go yummmm. and with my ear damage I can do with a rolled off high end, I can take less than stellar bass WAY before I can take ear grating high ends. I also agree about music being very important, which does seem to be over looked at most places "headphone" rabbit. for its the music that really moves you the most, regardless of what cans u have to hear it through. better can's just help one enjoy their music MORE. amen preacher oh just an FYI , if u buy them direct from maker they are actually still on sale (no idea how long it lasts) fur 89$ instead of 99$ EDIT, buying them direct is USA only sorry.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 31, 2013 11:41:01 GMT
Hi Chaz, Well, I was having a bit of a rant session too I suppose, since I have had time off work and been looking a lot more around the internet. You find lots of 'know-alls' who can't 'bear' something on their heads because it's so 'offensive'. What weirdos!! I was looking on one site where some are particularly up their own .....'s and when you visit the music recommendations, well ........ really? They seem to almost 'try' to prove their weirdness by picking things that are really off the wall (at least publicly) and it makes me wonder if they actually listen to 'music' or prefer hi fi noises where grunts, squeaks and bumps are portrayed in beautiful stereo imagery? ie - music designed to just show you what a headphone does? That's why I've really liked Alan's World Music thread here because he is listening to the music, not the headphone as well as the thread about what you're listening to now. They show people listening to music, not headphones which is what it's about really. (and Frans with his jazz which he quietly listens to!!!) Honestly ..... put something simple on and listen ... Led Zep, Sabbath, jazz, whatever and test the headphone for how it 'portrays' that music and you get some pleasant surprises sometimes. Having said that, a 'flat' headphone works with most things quite well, although a bad recording can actually sound quite nasty!! Then you need a skewed headphone!!!! As far as headphones go, as far as I'm concerned, there's room for all 'flavours' and there's no correct one 'thing'. They're only headphones anyway and I think most hi fi people are using things way better than what are used in studios anyway!! Never take it that a studio headphone is superior!!!!! Actually, the reason that I enjoy Tyll's reviews is that he doesn't have that 'snob' attitude and he also includes about the right amount of 'tech' info so not to be boring. He's right in that the measurements are important and the distortion figures, (He mentions lack of distortion in the bass of the AE51's actually) but doesn't fixate on it and looks for musical qualities, which is a sign of a 'listener'. As far as the AE Studio 51's go, they are quite impressive for the price. The build is really quite nice and beyond anything else at the same price. Cups are small but do fit over the flaps of your ears and so seal quite well. I've only had them a short while to try, but I have been impressed by them. In particular, the bass. It is a BIG bass but is controlled and not at all bad for picking out bass lines in rock music. I don't understand why I hear more bass on these than the CAL2 where Tyll heard more on the CAL2. IMO, the CAL2 is is more 'vague' sounding which gives it a more 'spacey' feel and what some may call a 'wide' soundstage. To me, it's a bit 'fizzy' by comparison. That's why I compared it to the Senn momentum which also has this 'direct' sound - it does have a similarity soundwise. The Senn is less bassy and so seems more 'open' but the AE51 does resolve bass quite well, albeit strongly. The treble (like the Momentum) is rolled away. This isn't always a bad thing, as long as it's not too much. The effect is that this is a mellow headphone - I'm not sure whether the walnut cups are producing this or whether it's just the way that they are voiced. It's a relaxing listen and doesn't fatigue. I did a 'voice' test with it and this is the weird thing - although the ae51's give a big bass, they don't over-emphasise mens' voice boom. (just) So wherever the 'hump' is, it's close to mens' voices but not quite on it so they're ok. I'll compare to the M50 since I have one Chaz. I'm not that fussed about the M50. It's not the bass but the treble that I find a bit 'mushy'. When it comes down to it, I wouldn't wear either the CAL2 or the M50 mobile. CAL2 is to big and stands out to far while the M50 has a heavy coiled lead. However, the AE51's, I would wear. They sit flat on your head and the raised bass helps to cut out exterior rumble. The pads do a god job with treble, so they are really effective. (I have tried it) I'm doing a headphone presentation in the new year so these are some of the candidates that I'm preparing. (That's why I've been through all the Senn HD series recently) One thing with hi fi people - they don't see a headphone for much else than absolute faithful reproduction of music. Even then, they aren't faithful really - producing so much sound in a tiny speaker strapped to your head!! For others, headphones offer a different experience and we also need to look at applications and what they are designed for. The criticism for the Sony V6 for instance is not really fair on it as a headphone. It's great for monitoring purposes and comfortable to wear. Isolation is good so it does a great job in that respect. However, they get bashed because of their raised treble which is actually useful in monitoring situations. How about criticising the Senn HD650 because it's useless in a portable situation? That's doing it the other way around. The Senns just aren't right in that situation and I think it's the same for these low cost type headphones. We know they're not hi fi, but I have to be honest - some of them do a great job in a mobile situation. They offer good sound which is biased towards bass for sure, but that really is useful on a tube or bus to mask rumble. The treble is down which means it is less painful and possibly less damaging at high volume too. (although that's not exactly correct) These work at low volume fine and really bloom as you turn up. Also, let's face it - a $99 dollar headphone? It's not that bad at all. Best to try it first I guess, but I WILL compare it with the M50 which is what many will naturally compare it with. However, the M50 isn't a portable headphone. I tend to think of application first and then sound. Hi fi people think sound and then applications!!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 31, 2013 12:53:47 GMT
OK Chaz, I had a quick listen to the M50 and AE51. The AE51 isn't quite as 'open' sounding as the M50, but it is more focused sounding again! The M50 has more in common with the CAL2 with respect to the treble. The treble (to me shounds more shhh rather than sssss) The AE51 is more 'ssss' sounding although there is absolutely no sibilance. There is more presence in upper mids/lower treble so the M50 sounds comparatively harsher but more open, I'd say. The bass is harder hitting on the AE51 and is really focused. Bass drums can almost be 'felt' in their intensity, but it dies very quickly so that the rest is left intact. It's a close call actually. I was quite surprised in that I felt the M50 would be a much better headphone, whereas I don't really feel that when I listen. It has a different presentation for sure and seems more spaced out, but I do prefer the luxurious sound of the AE51 I think. Then again, I'm happy to forget out imaging since I don't really get that much of an image with any headphone so perhaps the M50 images better. (I'm not convinced) The comparison has made me feel that the AE51 is a good buy. It's too close to the M50 for comfort. (I think Tyll prefers the M50) It's also frighteningly close to the Senn Momentum in the way that it really focuses the bass whack and the treble 'quality' which is actually pretty clean. (It may have less quantity of treble but it's actually quite good) It has more bass than the Momentum. More comfortable for me too. That's the Senn's biggest failing for me. Swings and roundabouts, Chaz. It's close. I think some will prefer the milder attack and the more open sound of the M50 where others might prefer the sheer attack and vibrancy of the AE51. I'd like to see the FR response of the AE51. It might look quite skewed i think but it's ok on the head tbh. I was hoping Tyll would post what he found, but he hasn't yet. I suspect pretty rolled away treble and a camel hump but I can't help but like its sound. I would personally buy the AE51 over the M50, but that might be just my preference. Both are skewed. just depends on how much 'skew' you prefer!!!! Both aren't exactly a hi fi headphone really and my own feeling is that the M50 has been ramped up unnecessarily and it's not really the great headphone that everyone originally made out. I've always been disappointed with them. (Had quite a few for work - old and new) Portable - the AE51 is an outright winner. Home use - I enjoy the AE51 more but I could understand people preferring the more mild sounding M50. Comfort - M50 because it's bigger. AE51 not that bad either though. Sound - Depends on your priorities. Ruggedness - M50 is very rugged. AE51 is less so because it's a lot prettier. (Memory foam cushions though) Treble - More focused in AE51 Bass - Bigger in AE51, so perhaps the M50 is more 'accurate'? Mids - M50 has more mid presence, I'd say mainly dues to higher low treble energy or upper mid energy. The M50 has more ability to sound harsher. I can't imagine the AE51 turning ugly sounding. (Rather Senn like) Unlike Tyll, I thought the inclusion of an amp helped to tidy up the AE51 bass a bit more actually. If anything - slightly less? Chaz, it's a tough call - toss a coin!!! EDIT: Here's another weird thing about the tonal aspect of these headphones. Since they respond so energetically to bass, I thought that they might be a bit too bass heavy for orchestral music and also lacking in treble for good string sound. I listened to some Mahler this afternoon on Radio 3 via the AE's and they were great!! The double basses and timps had real weight but the real surprise was in the treble. Nothing like as muted as I thought on strings and wind tone. In fact, they sounded really good turned up - no screech but there was detail in the treble with a real solid underpinning going on in the bass. I'm getting more attached to these the more I listen. They're lovely and mellow, with a fair rasp on brass sounds. You can hear that they are a 'closed' headphone, but then again, they are closed!! I wonder whether the acoustic guys at AE used Senns as a model for their sound? They place you out in the audience (like senns) with this dynamic, warm sound that really engages you with orchestral music as well. I really didn't expect them to be very good with this kind of music but they're fine.
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Post by MaN227 on Jan 1, 2014 2:25:22 GMT
rabbit, thanks so much for all your input/feedback, I much appreciate it bro.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 1, 2014 17:29:16 GMT
Hope it helped, Chaz.
Another thing I've found that isn't what Tyll found. They do change with amps. I can tell which amp is connected to them.
The Fiio E12 sounds too hefty. Extension is curtailed. Neco portable opens up the treble and sounds better. O2 is the best. It is more open up top but the sound is more transparent. A tad less weight in the bass.
So amp differences can be heard on them imo. Just saying since Tyll implied that they don't respond to amping. I'm not so sure.
So best combo so far is (from ipod dock) the O2. It's slightly more open in sound.
This reminds me of the Fanny Wangs which I liked!! I think these are better though.
The treble extension is there, but not as prominent as some headphones. The HD598 sounds really thin if you go straight over to them and the top end feels wrong on the Senns if I'm honest. I suspect that Techboy heard this switching between the HD650 and HD600.
A mate of mine bought a CAL2 so I compared directly: The bass on the AE is quite different to the CAL2. The CAL goes much deeper so if you have anything with deep bass, then there is more bass. Tyll is right. It really depends on the material. The CAL thunders down low but the AE51 doesn't go as low to be able to do that. Both are quite good headphones actually in different ways. The CAL2 is more extended in the bass by quite a long way.
The way that you perceive the bass really depends on what you're coming from tbh. If it's an HD598, then they both feel like they have enormous bass. Once you listen for a while, both basses are not really too bad. Your ears soon adjust!! The AE is more 'focused' though and the CAL2 treble is slightly more vague. I'm hard pushed to choose between them tbh. I prefer both to the M50 too.
Both have a camel hump in the mid bass though. The CAL2 hump is perhaps lower down. AE is better for mobile while the CAL2 is better at home due to its size. CAL2 seems slightly warmer in tone.
I may get a CAL2 now!! (I'm allowed to keep the AE's which I like a lot)
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 1, 2014 22:13:10 GMT
This is interesting ........ same headphone? link
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Post by MaN227 on Jan 1, 2014 23:01:33 GMT
This is interesting ........ same headphone? linknot sure what is going on but I can't load that site in firefox OR opera. even the home page. odd :/ it finally loaded after a long long time. looks to be the same 'cept the black grill parts are left and right of wood not top to bottom. now I'm confused I thought the ae51 was a brand new headphone, THEIR design and build. this has got me scratching my head. almost as if someone is making these and simply labeling them with what the buyer of mass amounts wants put on them. specs are clearly different, IF they are accurate. just copied this from AE51 site TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS Speaker Size: 40mm Frequency response: 20Hz-20kHz Impedence: 32Ω Sensitivity: 110 +/- 3dB (1kHz, 1mW) Rated input power: 30mW Flat Cable: removable 1.2m TPE Jack: 3.5mm gold-plated wold enclosed and the one u just listed the es-655wn Drive unit:Moving coil dynamic speaker. Speaker size: 40mm. Magnet: Neodymium. Frequency response: 18Hz-22KHz. Sensitivity: 101+/-3dB At 1KHz1mW. R&L balance< 3dB(50Hz-6KHz 1mW). THD, total harmonic distortion: <3%. Impedance: 32 Ohm. Rated input power: 30mW. Maximum input power: 50mW. Cable: length 1.2m TPE Material. Plug: 3.5mm gold-plate. there are differences EDIT: if I understand what I read correctly , what i suspected is correct. I think the latter is the actual makers of these headphones and AE has gave them the mods the felt would be to their liking on the ES-655WN perhaps this sheds some light? from the FAQ's at woodheadphones edit again I reread your take on the ae51's , as there seems some similarity , is the ae51 sound akin to a fran's filters superlux 681? a little? a lot ? not at all? not sure how u did it ... but it seems you have come across the manufacturer of the ae51's. and they have MANY can's, on ear, over ear, iem's. just makes me wonder how many other marketed name cans they actually make for this or that company. afterall it almost feels like EVERYTHING is made in china, and this or that label slapped onto when a buy can purchase a large amount.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 2, 2014 8:06:27 GMT
Yes, I was surprised Chaz. The company, AE says that they used an acoustician in order to tune them but it looks as though the units are actually Chinese and manufactured out there for other companies. AKG do this. Probably cheaper to have them made out there.
They don't sound at all like Superlux. They are nowhere near as strident in the treble. They are quite mellow. Comparing directly with the CAL2 which is also very good, shows that the CAL goes deeper into the bass. The AE doesn't go as low but there is still a hump in the mid bass so you get the impression that it has a low bottom end. (Grados are the same) So the bass on the CALS whacks harder lower down. The CALS don't isolate so well though.
I had that CAL2 up until last week and they had to go back but a friend bought some because he liked mine. He lent them to me to compare directly with the AE.
I still like the AE sound though. It's more 'direct' than the CAL2 which is more 'spacious' sounding. The Senn Momentum has this 'direct' kind of sound, with less bass than the AE, but then again, it's three times the cost.
I'm not certain what that site does. Whether they sell headphones or supply shells to potential sellers but they certainly look like the actual manufacturer of the AE51, rather than this small company in California.
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Post by MaN227 on Jan 2, 2014 8:18:29 GMT
if I'm being 1000% honest I don't give a rats ass where anything is made. only how much it costs in total to get delivered to me . so not like modded 681... similar to senn momentum. not there the sen mo. is the sen mo similar to sen hd650? I very much enjoy my senn hd650's. I just might have to give the ae51 a try the friggin' headphone bug has bitten again I like what I read about the foxtex 50 as well. so many choices so little funds .... arrrrrrrrhhhhh
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 2, 2014 9:14:18 GMT
They do remind me of Senns Chaz because they are kind of laid back. Tyll mentions 'veil' in his description.
You can hear that it is a 'closed' headphone. The CAL2 is different in this respect. It's a pity you couldn't borrow them from somewhere. If I had to choose, I'd be hard pushed. The AE is compact and better mobile while the CAL2 is big and lush. The original CAL which I also have has much less weight than the CAL2.
To me, the CALs are in the same market. Also, big bass.
The money aspect is always the thing that makes me be slightly careful what I say, Chaz.I'd hate to think people were getting themselves into debt based on an internet description. I know that it's an addictive hobby and in many cases, tbh it's swings and roundabouts.
Also, the sound Sig that I enjoy may well not be one that you enjoy! I know that I can accept rolled away treble and big bass quite happily, while I know that there are people who hate it. Then again, I don't like a thin, mean bassed sound that some revel in!! I can only listen for a short while before my attention wanders!! Then again, it could be to do with the shape of my head/ears.
The T40/50 are like reference headphones to me. They do sound right but the T40 which is quite flat can mangle some recordings. It's not the headphone but the bad mastering.
Then there's a choice to make....
Would you rather have an accurate headphone with a nasty sound because of the bad mastering?
Or
Something to mask the bad mastering?
Some just wouldn't listen to the recording because of it. For me, a headphone is just a tool that may need to be changed in order to help adjust a sound. For others, this isn't the case and they stick to their 'ideal' of absolute accuracy.
That's not a bad thing, but it can limit what you want to listen to!!
For mobile, mp 3 type use, the AE51 is terrific. T40 isn't because it almost highlights the problems of mp 3. Purists might say that we shouldn't be listening to mp 3.
To me, headphones are more a tool, to be used in certain situations, not as a unique, 'correct' listening device. Different flavours/qualities opens up what you can accept.
Radio/speech headphone. Orchestral. Rock. Monitoring. Noise cut off in some situations.
They need something different perhaps, where a purist might say, 'an accurate headphone would be fine in all of these situations and reproduce exactly what's there'.
There's room for all kinds. T40 portable is a no go. It needs too much power, doesn't isolate that well and without a filter, is also quite rolled away. So for portable use, something else is needed.
Purists might not approve of portable music in any case. I never forgot a well known hi fi shop in the UK turning his nose up at me when I asked him about a new idea - the new (at the time) mp 3 players. Looking at today's market, how wrong he was!
So, save your money Chaz if you want a closed headphone for home use. For portable, the AE51 is designed well in that it won't accentuate nasties. It has a boosted bass (although not deep) in order to mask external rumbles. It isolates well and is quite sensitive.
For critical home listening, I'd say maybe get something more analytical?
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Post by MaN227 on Jan 2, 2014 9:48:25 GMT
hehe, don't think I'm asking you to tell me to buy the ae51's. just curious about your thoughts on them and their sound. my first post starts off with surprised to see these here. I already had interest after reading tyll's review. or how ever its spelled so please don't worry bro, you don't have to "walk on eggshells" for fear I will buy them and not like them. if I buy them and don't like them its ALL on me. Also, I can resell them if I don't like them, or who knows perhaps they will become another Fran's mod project. at the end of the day its all good, and in usa their sale price is still on and shipping is free, so some foot and back rubbing action may be in order .... as I creep into the bedroom.....oh dearest one hehe and perhaps some "other " rubbing the "other" would be more for me but she don't need to know that lol
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