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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 22:03:59 GMT
Hi Topcat,
I wholeheartedly agree with you concerning the Sansa Clip. I've had one for years, and when you take into account it's very low cost, long battery life, codec flexibility, tiny size, and superb sound quality, it all adds up to a bit of a giant-killer.
Concerning Chinese manufacture, some people still turn their noses up at this. They forget that there are three types of Chinese manufacturing.
The first is the cheap-as-chips (excuse the pun), low-quality, knocked together in the back of some 'shed' in HK, and sold on E-bay for ten bob type of kit.
The second is, as you have found out, OEM manufacturers. Your AKG's you have discovered are built in China. You can add to that just about every major hi-fi manufacturer in Europe. We're talking everything here, from source kit - turntables, CD players, streamers, and tuners. Big name amps and speakers have been built in China for ages. Even Apple have been making Mac-book Pro's in China for years. At the moment I'm listening to a Cambridge Audio Stream-Magic (designed in UK and built in China) while at the same time writing this post on a Google Nexus 7 which to be honest, I don't know where its nominally based, but I'd bet my mortgage its built in China! When UK or US based companies take their designs to China and - MOST IMPORTANTLY - set up UK/US standard quality-control regimes, the results are stunning.
The third type of Chinese manufacturing is the companies (many of them originally OEM assemblers) who have had the balls to 'go it alone'. At the moment I'm listening to a Shanling STP-80 valve amp being fed by my "Chinese" Streamer and it sounds glorious. The fit and finish are excellent, and the quality of the stainless steel and aluminium are top notch. Add to Shanling top quality companies like Acoustat, Jolida, Ming-Da, Jungson, Aurum Cantus, etc. etc., and you can see where the trend is going.
I feel that Chinese companies at this point in time are like Japanese companies were thought of 20 or 30 years ago. Do you remember the phrase "Jap Crap"? Ha-Ha, tell that to UK Motorbike and Car manufacturers who went bust because the Japanese were able to produce better, more reliable kit, with more features, and cheaper than they could hope to build. This is where Chinese companies (the good ones, the Shanlings, the Ming-Da's etc) are at the present time. Give them another 10 years (and with China's booming economy and manufacturing capabilities), maybe less, and they will be in a dominant position that Japan could only dream of.
As I write this on my Chinese built tablet, and listen to great music via my British-designed, Chinese-built streamer, and Chinese-designed, Chinese-built valve amplification, I can only say bring it on.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 24, 2014 22:14:16 GMT
I'm reading you on a Chinese built Ipad!!!
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Post by TOPCAT on Jan 24, 2014 22:55:52 GMT
Hi EKbluesboy...It was nice to hear from you and while reading your message it came to mind how things really have changed regarding Chinese and Japanese products and how they have come along over the years...This past few months I have purchased a few Japanese Audio equipment....and boy are they well made...My first bit of kit was a Fiio E7 Andes portable amp/DAC...it turned out to be quite a performer for my needs and the Dac alone is very very good..the amp side helps to power my AKG's...But the best piece of kit I bought to actually power the AKG's ( as you are no doubt aware they are very hard to drive to get te best) I invested in a budget end Valve Amp....the 'Bravo Audio Ocean Mini Valve Class A Tube Headphone Amplifier' and this controls the AKG's wonderfully...I upgraded the Valve at a minimum cost of a tenner ( the '5963/12AU7/ECC82 RCA NOS TUBE/VALVE') the one that came with the amp was a bit too cold for me..once again this was a very well made product from the rising sun and has a great reputation and getting bigger as a company. I'm sure we could talk about this issue all day long..but not being used to this site yet I'm not sure if we can because the topic was originally about the Porta pros...It would be interesting to find out any results regarding this ...Cheers everyone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2014 0:19:21 GMT
Hi Topcat,
Listen, we're a relativly new forum, but most of us are survivors from a previous place where it kind of all went wrong. Think of us - not as political, or war, or economic refugees, but as 'forum-enical' refugees. (Is forum-enical a word? Who cares? I've just invented it!!)
One of the few things that was really RIGHT about the old place was that (unlike the majority of forums) threads had the freedom to wander hither and yon. Without trying to pre-empt the admins, I think that is what we have here.
There are no "Thread-topic" Nazis in DIYAUDIOHEAVEN.
This is not "Head-you-know-where".
This forum has been deliberately, cleverly, and consciously set up so that the scientific, technical stuff (thanks Frans and Javier) is in one place, and the mainly ill-informed, petty and in-accurate and downright biased ravings of mad, swivel-eyed, headphone obsessives who are clearly two biscuits short of a packet can be aired in public without fear that the men in white coats will come and take them away.
For evidence of this, simply read any post by our favourite member Aakshey. BTW, It may help you to know that there are various help-groups and councilling sessions available to you after you have read all of Aakshey's posts.
Please feel free to wander on and off topic here as whim dictates.
It's all good.
BTW - why are you still a "guest"?
This is the place to be - we have music freaks, and tech-freaks, so no matter whether you are mad in an objective or subjective way, you will find a home here.
Get yourself joined up. "YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE"
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 25, 2014 7:00:44 GMT
You made me laugh reading that.
You put the origins of the first members very well to say the least!!
One good thing coming from the old place is that I learned quite a few lessons concerning how the internet can be used and abused.
My wife told me to try and not become cynical and become proactive and do something that counteracted my nervousness and fear of people on the end of a computer.
That's one of the reasons our little corner was put together.
As far as wandering off topic goes - it's not a massive deal. I never understood on all hi fi forums why mods got so uptight about it tbh. It's not as though these sites are the oracle of knowledge because truth and untruth can be found alongside each other.
So DIYAH has two real experts who have their own sections where tech knowledge and reality exist. There's a great reference point plus the wonderful blog that Frans has maintained magnificently. That left me with the highly subjective area of music (which is surprisingly low on many hi fi places!!) since I am a musician and feel safe in that area. I've learned to keep away from tech stuff unless I know what I'm talking about and let Frans deal with the complexities of the occasional smart alec who comes in with the purpose of proving him wrong. (I even see this happening on other forums, referring to him which I think is downright low and tells me more about the poster) pure jealousy comes to mind here.
The rest of the forum allows the ramblings of the others. Impressions. Humour. Whatever, but behind it is a great deal more respect than I see on many other forums where knowledge is often used as a kind of weapon to put someone else down. Makes the instigator feel good, I guess.
So DIYAH is a place where I truly relax if I'm honest. There are no agendas and it's fine to be 'human' and simply chat like one.
We're close to 100 now and we get 300 - 400 per day which really isn't too shabby for a new forum. My personal feeling is get the atmosphere right and the majority of members may contribute, rather than what is so often seen .... Thousands of members with so few contributors. Funnily enough, the visitor numbers are sometimes used by the admin to prove how great the forum is. Count the contributors and it tells a very sad story!!
A forum is only really as good as the members and we have some really nice guys on this one and are really fortunate!!
That's why I enjoy it so much.
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solderdude
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measureutternutter
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Post by solderdude on Jan 25, 2014 16:07:52 GMT
The PortaPro's send to me to check show all the signs of being the real deal and not a fake. The drivers are 65 Ohm, they have similar coloured pads and headrests, the inner circle of small holes says real, the mic screw says real, one side has a 4 other side has no markings. I measured them and they kind of perfectly match the new pair I just bought even down to Left and right differences. Before one says that might be the measurement rig... alas no as I only use the left channel microphone and turn the headphones around when measuring the other side. Ian, if you want I could Kramer mod these it will give them slightly more highs.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 25, 2014 17:50:28 GMT
Hi Frans.
They arrived!!!!! Ok ... Try a Kramer mod and I'll compare (or you if you want because you can measure).
At least I'll have a choice of Porta sound!
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Post by topcat on Jan 25, 2014 19:08:35 GMT
Hi Everyone..Actually EKbluesboy...I thought I was a member...I registered and have to sign in now...I made a temporary Avatar..hopefully when I post this you should see it..?? Your comments made me smile too and I understand that my chatter will not be taken the wrong way as such and carrying on about other things on a topic originally designed for headphones won't be taken wrongly either.. .. It was great news to hear that Ian's phones turned out to be real...I had a gut feeling they would be..I think sometimes we can be Overly cautious of the things we buy and the slightest oddity on them will automatically make us go balistic and scour the internet to make sure we have the genuine article....Panic over...we can then relax and enjoy what we bought, sitting back in an armchair and enjoying the music for what they were intended... Although new to this site I can see that I can come here and question things and even get support from fellow Audiophiles..technicians and musicians alike...Everyone has their bag...This past several years I have gained a great respect from friends,family and the general public knowing that I give an unbiased opinion about Gadgets out there...YES..I have my favorite brands...but I won't praise them if they make a lemon or design a monster..and like everyone out there we all have differnt ears and hear things differently to others..But when I read certain reviews (on sites such as Amazon,etc etc)that are utter crap and just moan for the sake of it...I will say something.A point in question...The Koss Porta Pros...this guy bought them..and then went on to slate their design.. .UH...am I missing the point...why buy them in the first place if you didn't like the look.??...then rant and rave how terrible they look and give them one star...IDIOT.!!!...I know they shouldn't,but they get right up my nose. Anyway....I'm hear if anyone would like to ask me any questions about Hi-Fi or Gadgets music related or not...And If I can helpin anyway too, I will..Many thanks for your warm welcome...Steve.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 25, 2014 19:24:27 GMT
Hi Steve.
I think for me, it's because I've heard much better headphones and the Portapros in isolation are absolutely fine. Just move to a better headphone and you become aware of their flaws.
So reading the hype had me expecting perhaps a lot more. I wasn't convinced tbh. I wasn't certain how they should sound.
I had some very old ones that really deteriorated and I had no real reference point for the replacements that I got.
At least Frans will send me a definite real one and I'll be able to compare with the Kramer mod as well. (Plus a modded K550 which I' m really looking forward to hearing)
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solderdude
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measureutternutter
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Post by solderdude on Jan 26, 2014 13:06:48 GMT
Well the Kramer mod is a bit of a bummer in the sense that the reported improvements are much smaller than expected. Almost everywhere it is being praised and impressions range from 'tighter' and better (more) bass to more highs etc. As the PortaPro always has the same amount of force clamping it to the rig and it is easy to line it up exactly (because of the on-ear add-on to the rig) the differences shown in the plot below is what's really happening. Kramer modded, originalIt seems there is slightly more extension in the highs but a slightly smaller level. I think the fact that he also uses thicker pads (from KSC12) which lowers the part below 1kHz is the real secret as you get more highs in that case.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 26, 2014 16:41:02 GMT
Well at least you've seen the effects, Frans. Thing is, especially on Headfi, one has to be slightly careful about who you believe since it's festooned with hyperactive kids who hear all kinds of things depending on what brand of lemonade they've been drinking. Unfortunately, scattered amongst them are also really knowledgeable guys as well. I've been following a few threads (including the Ember and CAL2) and you really do see some surprising statements there that remain uncorrected!! Not to worry. If you want to have a solid play with that one, don't worry about it being unusable Frans. I really have no worries about that!! You have a kosher one there anyway. I think for me, I must have been expecting so much more from the Portapro due to those kinds of people on Headfi, and since I have and have heard a lot better, to me they don't seem that good in all honesty. I find them OK and in isolation, on the face of it they're actually very nice. However, once you compare with anything else, flaws are really quite obvious so I put it down to mine being fakes after reading all the scaremongering. In a way, I was hoping they were so that you could do a proper comparison in the cold light of day as it were. I didn't find them bad, but they really aren't the be all of headphones and the hype that is seen is slightly overblown imo. They're ok. At least I know that I've heard a real one!!! The K550 is more interesting.
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Post by c61746961 on Jan 26, 2014 17:43:04 GMT
Oh, but they're very nice as a complete package! I got mine for 25 USD and didn't expect them to be such a fun pair, I find them better sounding than the Grado I've heard and just as fun. They are comfortable and convenient. Not 'giant killers' but a very competent little pair of headphones without a doubt. They have found a permanent place at home for sure : )
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 26, 2014 17:58:36 GMT
Oh yes. They're fine. For the price that is. I think the hype kind of gives them a reputation for being better than they actually are. I think for that reason, I expected more from mine and then thought perhaps they were fakes.
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Post by c61746961 on Jan 31, 2014 17:43:51 GMT
I'm curious if these drivers show any difference when kramer AND coin modded in bass distortion, the sensation I constantly perceive is of diminished bass when I remove any foam in front of the driver, and I have tried a few materials. Man, I really need to build a measurement rig, any pointers on how to build the headphone coupling?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 31, 2014 17:49:58 GMT
I've just got the real Portapro and a Kramer Portapro back from Frans and if I'm honest, I prefer the Portapro as it is. However, the full Kramer mod involves also changing the pads so that they are thicker so this could fix the problems that i think the mod introduces.
Basically, the Kramer version is mid and lower treble rich. That makes it more congested sounding, but with thicker pads, this may be alleviated to some extent.
The basic Portapro has nothing lke the same mids, but the treble is more refined and 'seems' higher. This may be because the Kramer mod pushes up the mids so much.
At least now, I have what I KNOW is a real Portapro and to my ears, is better left alone unless perhaps the pads are changed as well.
The measurement rig is the most useful piece of kit that any modder could have imo. It takes a lot of guesswork away as well as those 'clumsy' mods that change a headphone's sound but don't really improve them.
Frans has modded my K550 via his usual method of testing on his rig and I've got to be honest - it's another headphone. However, you know that it's closer to a nice flat FR since he's measured it and no 'crude' stuff wool here and there method has been used.
One thing I didn't care for was the multitude of mods for the T40 which were kind of random in what effect they had. The 'subjective' me enjoys the 'gung ho' method but there is also the rather more sensible 'objective' me that prefers it to be as right as possible.
I also kind of know that the sound I tend to prefer is one that is flat as possible in the treble but raised in the bass. Once you realise what kind of sound you prefer then measurements can give you exactly what you want. Frans has really convinced me of that and imo, he puts the headphone industry to shame.
Having that level of control over a headphone brings real results without guesswork and crude guesswork. The more I hear his work, the more I become absolutely convinced that the measurements really are the key to consistency but then tinge it with flavour or subjectivity.
In my case, the K550 now gives a flat response and I can actually configure the amp to raise the bass level to what I prefer personally. Basically, it's luxury!!!!
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