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Post by Rabbit on Mar 26, 2014 21:22:13 GMT
Studiospares (in the UK) are sending me one of their 'monitoring' headphones tomorrow. They make two (or have someone make them for them) I have no idea what they really are but have occasionally seen pro guys using the M1000 which is a closed headphone. The M2000 is an open one with soft (Denon like) pads. Not velour!
It looks tough in pictures but when I saw its retail price, I was very surprised. Without vat, they are £59 I think. So I guess with vat, somewhere around £70.
They look quite different to many other headphones. The M2000 is supposed to be more neutral than the closed M1000 so M1000 for studio and dj people and the M2000 for 'accurate' monitoring. A few pros swear by them, but then again, they're not hi fi people very often.
The cable detatches and it looks like I could sit on them safely!!
Has anyone ever heard one or even know what it really is?
“The packaging and overall quality of the headphones was great, they’re sturdy with a decent length lead and a big plus point for me in a studio situation was the ability to disconnect one side of the headphones if a vocalist or performer wanted to hear their fold back mix just in one side. The balance of the headphones was good and they didn’t seem overly hyped in the lows ( a common problem on headphones) I could easily use them for checking my mixes and they were a great snug fit on my head rejecting outside ambient noise brilliantly. I’ve been using these for drummers to track with over the past few days and none have told me they were struggling to hear the fold back mix!
At this price they’re a steal!”
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Mar 26, 2014 22:03:36 GMT
M1000: M2000: I am guessing OEM Fisher Audio closed version (FA003): This version is an improved one (titanium flashed, just like the cheap KSC75) and is now costing $ 220.- while they used to be much cheaper. Cashing in on its succes I reckon. open version (FA002) Fisher also makes woodies from these headphones. These are VERY expensive ($ 350 and one even $ 670.-)) They also sell velours pads for these headphones. The FA003 pads are often used by modders (also for T50RP). here is another OEM model: it may look somewhat familiar as well Some other models scream Audio Technica. The price of these Studio Spares is MUCH MUCH better than the FA prices !
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 27, 2014 4:39:57 GMT
Thanks Frans. I'd seen that some think of them as Fischer headphones but know nothing about either.
Can't find fr curves either so I was a bit suspicious about them when they sell at that kind of price. No one says too much about them anywhere yet I have occasionally seen them around. Makes me think of the Rolands which are aimed at a similar market, but you don't often see them around.
They look tough and designed to do the job. I'll have a good listen today.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Mar 27, 2014 6:11:57 GMT
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 27, 2014 20:04:25 GMT
First go with them today. Not bad at all. At £70, I think, with vat fantastic. They sound like a serious headphone. Very relaxing to listen to. highs are there and seem quite 'crystal' but not piercing. Bass seems quite strong but not big, overpowering bass. It's very satisfying in the lower region and I am also getting 'depth' info coming in nicely!! (At last ) They clamp really tight but don't touch your ears. The cups are very deep and it seems tough. The lead plugs in with 3.5 mm plugs to the cups and it comes in a nice carry case with two spare pads. Pads are not velcro and really feel like soft leather. (Very similar to the Denon pads) They don't get hot though because it's an open headphone. Once the headphone is on, it ain't gonna move - that's for sure. They stay put. (useful in a pro headphone, along with detatchable leads) My first feeling is that this headphone is a good value headphone. The price for what you get is quite low. The sound is not exactly like the graph suggests. The hump in the bass looks way bigger than what I think I'm hearing if I'm honest. I'll do some comparing over the weekend, but at £70, these are a really good buy. I can see why some studio people like them, although I guess it's not a typical home headphone with the depth of cups and clamp onto the head. No pain though!! It does remind me of an HD650, but as I say, I'll compare on the weekend. The M2000 is open though Frans whereas I think the Fischer is closed. The M1000 is a closed one from Studio Spares and that's also supposed to be very good according to some guys I've been working with. The M2000 is quite strange in having leather pads and yet it's an open headphone. Great sound though.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Mar 27, 2014 20:12:52 GMT
The plots are from the FA003 = M1000 and because they are closed headphones they will measure/sound quite different from the graphs above.
Can't find anything on the FA002
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 27, 2014 20:14:23 GMT
Studio Spares reckons the M2000 is a little more 'neutral' due to the fact that it's open. It does sound rather 'clean'. There's no big bloom on voices. Yet, it does have a good bass response. They also stay pretty well focused down at low volumes which is nice. As you get louder, it just grows and doesn't turn harsh.
• Breathable protein leather ear pads designed for long-term comfort • Detachable cable with screw-tight plugs • 42mm neodymium driver units • Open-back design for highly accurate sound • Frequency response 10Hz to 26kHz • Impedance 64 ohms • Designed for professional mixing and mastering
Includes
• M2000 Headphones • High quality 3.1 meter detachable screw-in cable • 3.5mm to 6.3mm (MiniJack to StereoJack) adapter • 2 x Spare ear pads • Instruction Booklet • Soft carry case
Actually what is becoming plainer is just how well these give 'depth' information. Really good for monitoring.
I was doing some close listening to Michael Jackson's 'Bad' album and it soon becomes clear that some of the electronic sounds are not exactky brilliant. Some are actually quite 'cheesy' sounding and you can hear that they have been di'd into the soundboard with very little manipulation. Other sounds are deeper into the mix and so sound further away.
The bass isn't exaggerated at all (as this album often is on other headphones) They are very balanced down there and the top is pretty clean sounding as well although not that extended perhaps.
They do analyse well and placing detail is quite well defined.
The only thing I can think of that they could have supplied is a short lead for mobile. They are sensitive, have spare pads and a nice case and a short lead would have been a bonus.
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 28, 2014 19:45:56 GMT
Another day with it, and I have to say, I do like it.
The top end occasionally seems steely until you go to another headphone where it is 'harsh' so it's the recording. Bass is not overstated at all. Clear as a bell in the bottom region and tbh, I can't really find much that I don't like in terms of sound.
They clamp hard and once on, they really don't move. Very comfortable with the soft leather pads though.
When the sound seems 'off', changing to other headphones reveals that it's actually the recording that's 'off' not the headphone and if anything, the M2000 plays them in a more friendly way. Treble isn't forgiving but it just sounds really balanced. There isn't an area where I think it needs to be improved since nothing actually stands out. Maybe they could be a bit more 'open' sounding, but I'm not certain about it. They sound extremely natural and because of that, they may seem unextraordinary to some people, but that very fact makes them cope with everything that they play really well.
For instance, if you have a toppy recording on a Sony V6 - it's ruthless and edgy. If you have a big bass on an HD650 - it's big and fat.
On these, you notice, but it doesn't dominate the mix at all. I noticed tape hiss and the edginess of a prince album that when I switched to the Sony V6, it became really nasty to listen to in the treble. On the HD650, it still sounded edgy, so the M2000 is reflecting the source very well.
On good source material it's pretty outstanding. So is the HD650 though. The HD650 and it's 'dulled' top end gives it away quite a lot but the Studiospares is slightly more dull edged at the very top. It kind of disappears after a while though. They scale up and down with ease though.
Here is the embarrasing bit - I am prefering these to the HD650 on some sources in many ways. Hopefully, this might wear off with its 'newness' factor but I think it's a match for the HD650 and an embarrassing £70 retail. (I think it is) It can be 'shouty' at very high volume, but then again, I think the source is 'shouty'.
The annoying thing is that I can't find an FR curve for them. My feeling is that they really are reflecting the source pretty well. They don't have the raised bass shown on the M1000 FR curve. I think studio pros might find them lacking in bass actually (But then again, imo it's accurate and not bloated) I prefer them to the DT770 pro. The DT is harsher in the top.
Given that this is totally blind listening, I'd love to see what the figures suggest.
It's a solid performer and could easily be used as a monitoring headphone since it seems so balanced.
This headphone is worth more than the price suggests and it surprises me that they haven't turned up on Headfi or elsewhere. Perhaps it's because Studiospares is a UK pro company and not well known elsewhere? They are built pretty well. The cups only swivel up and down; not left right but it's really not a problem. The pads are lovely and soft and so take up any oddities in head shape easily. There are also spare pads with the headphone and the zip up case for transporting. The lead just pulls out of the cups and is a really solid fit too, so they wouldn't pull out too easily when you're working and moving around. The plastic on the cups is similar in quality to the Senn hd650 cups.
I like these a lot. A no nonsense headphone that sounds pretty natural and so well balanced through its FR. My guess is that this is a Fischer headphone with Studiospares branding but this is going at a terrific price for what you get.
It's a lower impedance headphone than the Senns and is extremely sensitive too so it works direct from ipods/ipads. It scales up with an amp too.
There may be a peak in mid treble. Not sure. It could be the source. If I compare it with my Yamaha HPH-MT220 which is a very good monitoring headphone, it's really close. Yamaha has slightly more thwack and the treble is a little less 'steely'. I'm not sure which treble presentation I prefer. The M2000 just seems natural but the Yamaha has a more feathery top. (Whether that's good or bad, I can't decide) The M2000 isn't a heavy bass headphone.
Actually it's a good match with the Yamaha which is closed and this one being open.
It also has me wondering about recommending people to go buy an HD650 when this is available at such a good price. It's a bit more aggressive in the top but it does hold its own. Now I'm wondering about the M1000!! (A closed headphone)
I'm going to keep this one with my Yamaha which I love the sound of.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 19:51:50 GMT
“The packaging and overall quality of the headphones was great, they’re sturdy with a decent length lead and a big plus point for me in a studio situation was the ability to disconnect one side of the headphones if a vocalist or performer wanted to hear their fold back mix just in one side. I’ve been using these for drummers to track with over the past few days and none have told me they were struggling to hear the fold back mix! ” Ian, without getting too technical (if possible), what is a fold back mix? Jeff.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 28, 2014 20:02:48 GMT
If I'm playing onstage in a difficult venue where the sound bounces all over the place I would need the techos to send the sound to my receiver (headphone) in a different way to the audience. You want to hear yourself louder than the others in the band so you can closely monitor what you are playing (especially for accuracy in a venue with loads of reverberation) So your own sound is sent to you by the techs, louder than the other players in the band for you to monitor yourself.
However, at the same time, you don't want yourself sent back too loud since you need to 'interact' with the other players so the engineers will try to get you slightly louder while still making you feel part of the band as a whole.
I prefer to have the foldback sent to headphones myself. (I can turn it down) Others like the foldback mix sent via speakers that are normally at the front of the stage, facing backwards at the performers improving your chances of feedback nicely!!
It's basically the mix that live engineers make for the performers to monitor themselves and not the same balance of sound that the audience hears. So recordings are always a 'surprise' 'cos it's not necessarily what the performers hear.
Having said that, recordings can also come back as a shock as well with an idiot on a mixing desk!!
So a headphone that grips nicely like the M2000 is great because you can move your head and they won't fly off, although they need to be closed. (M1000 for live) The M2000 is possibly more 'accurate' sounding.
In a studio, the foldback is the 'mix' sent to the performers in their booths or rooms. (not the final mix for putting onto CD)
Headphones for pros aren't such a big deal as a nambie pambie hi fier ..... the engineers will eq to what you want and balance to what you need, so it's not a big deal. i love the Yamaha headphone and if it's not too loud, they could be used live, but generally, most performers would use an iem, personally fitted to their ears with moulds - attached to a radio receiver. The moulds are a rip off.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 20:07:11 GMT
Got it, thanks Ian
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 28, 2014 20:14:50 GMT
Actually Jeff, a good engineer can make or break a live show for the audience. If they send it back badly mixed to the performers, it actually affects the way that you play. Performers don't hear it the same way as the audience you see and if they compensate for things on stage, that may not be necessary from the audience viewpoint!! So for instance, if I had a folback with me too soft, I would naturally compensate and play louder which could get uncomfortable and then they'd have to turn me down on the mix that goes out to the audience so the balance as far as the audience goes can end up skewed. (You often hear that on live recordings - where the balance seems wrong)
I think you have the live recording of Thomas Dolby in Japan from a couple of years back I think it was? Listen to the opening and you will hear a brilliant example of that. The bass synth at the start is too loud and distorted ..... (Probably not what the performer heard.) I'm surprised it went out like that, but the original can't probably be fixed.
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Post by solderdude on Mar 28, 2014 20:16:25 GMT
Above FA-002 frequency plot = M2000 below the FA-003 = M1000 frequency plot (courtesy of the Russians)
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 28, 2014 20:22:57 GMT
M1000 looks a bit better on the plot Frans. I can see the steely edge that I hear on the M2000. It doesn't seem as big as that though. The M2000 equivalent looks less even than the closed one, but I really like its sound!! Now I might have to sample the M1000 if I can 'encourage' one to be sent!! They are nice headphones. (There is quite some unevenness between sides on the lower plot isn't there?)
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 29, 2014 10:03:53 GMT
Comparison with HD650 and DT770 shows it as piggy in the middle. I'd say that the top end has more of a 'clatter' than the Senn but actually isn't as refined in the treble. Bass is kind of similar. The DT770 has more top edge. (250 ohm version) I'd say on a par but the 770 has the potential to sound more edgy.
The HD650 is superior though and it's more to do with the quality of the treble. (Not the bass) The M2000 is comparatively closed in sounding at the top where the Senn sounds as though your ears are less enclosed. This may be because of the leather pads verses the velcro of the Senns. It's close, but I prefer orchestral on the HD650. Brass become a bit 'shouty' on the M2000 which might be that peak I see on the Fischer graph.
The funny thing is that although the M2000 is open, it almost sounds like a closed headphone!! It's really not bad sounding at all and because it's very sensitive, would be good as a portable full sized headphone, but the lead is too long. I'm going to have to look for an alternative lead I think.
I guess I'm hearing the 5k hump as a 'clatter'. Bass is actually nicely extended with no signs of boominess. Sometimes, you'd think it lacks bass whereas at other times, it's there and full bodied, so it's refelecting the source very much so. I guess this is why so many headphones raise the bass, so that poor quality recordings have a kind of 'sheen' over them and still sound good.
The M2000 doesn't seem to cover recording faults too well which is why I have perhaps seen it around on my travels. Maybe not a listener headphone but a listening tool? That's actually what draws me to it funnily enough.
On longer listening, it becomes more obvious that the imaging isn't as wide as some other headphones. I get depth information quite well funnily enough but the sound is more closed in, rather like listening on a closed headphone which is strange for an open headphone!! Although there is a strong 'clatter' up top, the high treble isn't so well defined and if you turn up to try and restore something up there, the headphone turns shouty.
Switching to Senn HD5*** shows the Senns to be superior in the treble. The sound opens out and the stage widens. Funny that an open headphone is closing the sound down. I wonder whether it's the leather pads?
This is what I'm finding and I'm glad to see another (sane) reviewer spotted it:
One of the things I learned early on is that the “characteristic sound” of the FA-002W tends to be somewhat more amplifier-dependent than is the case with some other headphones in its price class. On paper, nothing would suggest that the Fischers are difficult to drive, though their impedance rating of the High Edition model is higher than some, but in practice they worked significantly better with some amplifiers than others, meaning it will be worth your while to spend time finding a good match. Two specific amplifier recommendations would be the Burson Audio HA-160 and HiFiMAN EF-5, both of which gave great results with the Fischer headphones.
I found changing the output impedance has quite a strong effect on the top end in relation to the bottom end. It becomes almost closed sounding, but the treble clatter alters.
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