Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 27, 2014 12:30:08 GMT
Difficult choice? Both have pretty good fr. From what I've read, the hd800 is supposed to be quite toppy but the T1 looks more toppy. Don't like the look of the hd800 and the t1 is more 'normal' looking. Cable comes off of the hd800 (how often do they get changed). Hd800 is 300 oh,s while T1 is 600. T1 is supposed to be great from valve amps .... I have the Ember in mind here. T1 rings a bit more than the HD800. GE makes both look very good and it looks like a really difficult choice between the two. Would you go hd800 because loads of HF people do. Does the T1 appeal? I couldn't choose between either at that kind of money. T1 is a bit cheaper. Of course tradition ..... If you already have an hd800, I guess that's the way you'd go, or vice versa. Did you ever have doubts after you got it and thought ..... I should have got the other one?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 27, 2014 22:57:06 GMT
If I HAD to choose between HD800 and T1 I would pick the HD800. It has more potential.
I heard the T1 a couple of times and the treble peak needs to be tamed. For the HD800 the treble 'plateau' may need to be tamed as well. Neither are 'flat, real, accurate', both are treble happy and lack some body and subbass. If you prefer overly detailed headphones both may be your choice. If you like lush and warm/full sound neither would work well.
There are differences between various HD800's as drivers only are matched. Senn makes very bright to far less bright drivers (and everything in between) and select them acc to how the drivers measure. You could be ending up with a brighter or less brigthter version but in any case L and R will match, it is a lotery which one you get.
Beyer may have a similar problem. I do know there are very different sounding DT1350's around, maybe T1's as well.
I heard the T1 side by side to other headphones and when you listen to it 'alone' it sounds great. When you start comparing to something like HE-6, or even HE560 the T1 sounds relatively thin and lifeless.
The HD800 seems a safer bet than T1
Some claim the HD800 is the best headphone ever. I disagree, there is no such thing. There may be a headphone that suits your taste best and that may be the HD800 but could also be a planer or even a stat.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 27, 2014 23:03:49 GMT
That makes it difficult eh Frans? The answer is neither!!!! The peaks that are there with the HD800 are even stronger with the T1, and yet there are so many followers of that one while saying the HD800 is too treble focused!! It's big money too, which is why I was asking about it. Where would people go if they wanted a high end, revealing headphone at these price levels? It's a risk since there are so few places to actually try them out so you are really taking a chance with close to £1000. I've often thought about it. If I was going to actually buy a £1000 headphone, what would I buy. I can't answer it!!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 27, 2014 23:20:48 GMT
It makes it a difficult question if one is willing to spend that money. Plenty of people are and seem perfectly happy. I know some are really happy with their HD800's, K812's, LCD's, HE-6, oppos, TH900's and T1's. I have compared a few flagships to lesser gods and to me the sonic differences (especially when EQ'ed to have the same response) isn't worth the money. For those who don't mind spending that amount and don't want a hassle with mods atc. the top tier headphones may bring them closer to what they are looking for. Also there is pride of ownership, respect for the craftsmenship that went into this gear (the level of finsih ?) that may be reason for buying these. And compared to say the Abyss, Orpheus or high-end SR007/SR009 Stax rig these 2 can even be called a steal. Personally I am quite content with some of the lesser gods ... for now.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 27, 2014 23:29:29 GMT
Me too, ..... I think. It's a very difficult thing to answer I think and even worse if you think about it!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 0:18:47 GMT
I can't comment on the sound of either as they're financially out of my league. I have read a lot of comments from people who have 'upgraded' from HD 650 to HD 800 only to later re-purchase the HD 650.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 28, 2014 7:33:15 GMT
I saw some of that going on which did surprise me.
There's another guy who is deciding between an hd800 and a T1 plus and hd600. The difference in price is allowing him to budget for a Senn as well.
It's quite a lot of money to take a risk on and I was wondering what I'd do. I really couldn't choose. Maybe go for something else?
When I was younger, I used Stax headphones but really didn't like them. What about poor people who go and buy an hd800 based on reviews read and have the same thing - they don't like its sound? At that price level, it's hard to admit that you don't like your new headphone I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2014 18:07:43 GMT
I buy cars for less than the cost of the HD 800.
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Post by joethearachnid on Dec 29, 2014 0:49:01 GMT
I've heard HD800/T1/HE-6/LCD-2 etc. and even an SR-009 with Blue Hawaii at various events, and even though for many of them I couldn't use my own rig or music fully I still came out feeling very happy with my own rig. I quite liked the LCD-2 but I really don't trust my vague recollection from a few years ago to drop the money on one, especially since I believe that was an old rev. version.
Broadly the HD 600 I got at a steal price of £99 is never going to be fully topped by anything using normal audio technology and I just can't see an upgrade path that I'll actually be happy with without splashing an awful lot of money around. That's why I 'sidegraded' into a speaker system to complement my headphones rather than trying to upgrade. Also the music that I listen to isn't exactly consistent pristine audiophile jazz and so the overall gains wouldn't even be that great.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 29, 2014 7:21:09 GMT
So it looks like there is a limit on what some of us would spend on a headphone. It's interesting because I was quite happy to fork out £240000, near enough, for a speaker based system which bowled me over a few years ago (sense prevailed in the end, but it was installed in my house ready to be bought) but £1000 on a headphone is going too far.
For me, a brake comes on at around £300 or so. After that, I really have to think about it. That's the retail price of a Senn HD650. I'd like something more open than the 650 though. 600 is a great headphone. Cost of new pads is a bit daft and the band sheds paint. I thought that was poor on a 'premium' headphone. Sound is pretty even but for me could be a bit more sparkly.
Of course there's the LCD headphones and of course, the Fostex. Once you get to £1000 though, it is really difficult to know what to recommend. We're all much happier recommending cheaper alternatives which are also 'flawed' really and need modding to help them.
Headphone makers could do a much better job really, as Frans has consistently proved with his filters and reconfiguration of damping. You start to wonder why the manufacturers just can't get it 'as right' as possible even at premium prices.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 29, 2014 8:33:25 GMT
I'd like something more open than the 650 though. 600 is a great headphone. Cost of new pads is a bit daft and the band sheds paint. I thought that was poor on a 'premium' headphone. Sound is pretty even but for me could be a bit more sparkly. Of course there's the LCD headphones and of course, the Fostex. Once you get to £1000 though, it is really difficult to know what to recommend. We're all much happier recommending cheaper alternatives which are also 'flawed' really and need modding to help them. Headphone makers could do a much better job really, as Frans has consistently proved with his filters and reconfiguration of damping. You start to wonder why the manufacturers just can't get it 'as right' as possible even at premium prices. Once you heard the HD650 via a Kameleon you won't be wishing for more clarity and deeper bass and less 'warmth'. Simply plug it into an ordinary amp (or a flat module) and enjoy the typical HD650 sound again, Deep-funk was here a while a ago and couldn't stop listening to it. He said its the ONLY sennheiser he really liked. To me it sounds better than the overly bright HD800 and T1 via the Kameleon. Kameleon + HD650 is MUCH cheaper than any flagship headphone. I may have to send one on tour next year or so, have built 3 already for myself. Headphone manufacturers simply like to keep things simple. They already hate to select drivers let alone tune each individual cup (as is needed with T50RP etc). They just want something that can be made cheaply with robots, stick it in a box and sell it. They'll say they tuned it to this particular sound. There is plenty of evidence that even within the same model headphone there is lots of differences due to spread. Changstar measured a bunch of DT1350's on the same rig and they differed quite much, up to 10dB difference at certain frequencies was present. I haven't found a single T50/T40RP driver that measured the same. The older HD650 sounds very different from the current model (the newer HD650 is brighter) I've seen plots of a few HD650's on the same rig (Changstar) and some measure substantially different in the treble area. The newer M50 differs substantially from the older one. At Changstar they compared lots of HD800's and there seems to be a substantial difference between them. Likewise fot the K550 and some say the K812 as well ranging from treble peaky to 'listeanable' I have heard/compared quite a few HD681 and some of them had MUCH less bass. I quess they select drivers and the bass shy ones go in the F versions, the slightly bassier in the B and the basy ones in the red version. This way they don't have to throw away drivers. I know Senn has to throw about 30% of its HD800 drivers in the bin as they don't comply to minimum requirements they set. There is too much variance for manufacturers to make a 'steady' product and throwing away drivers is a costly business increasing the price of the ones that are used. These variances are also a problem when modding or EQ'ing as it may be based on headphone A, while HP-B differs and you don't get the same result. When modding isn't a labour of love it could be quite pricey given the amount of time involved to do it correctly.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 29, 2014 10:29:41 GMT
Absolutely Frans. No consistency and until now, no one around to prove it!
That's perhaps why real enthusiasts like yourself and me are loathe to spend big money on them. There is no consistency. I found that with Superlux, but at least they are extremely cheap. I have also found it with various Beyer headphones. I've had and heard many DT770s which have not sounded exactly the same; especially in the bass. That's why I think some love them and others hate them. Many describe it as having a one note bass quality which I don't feel with mine. Yet others that I have really did have a one note bass quality. That muggy, fat bloat. (Don't worry Chris, the one I sent to you was fine!!) 80 ohm versions seemed worse in consistency than the 200 variety. I have no idea why, but I've been through possibly 20 or more of them now and I have noticed slight variations.
The DT150 has been similar, although not as variable as the 770. The only thing I think may have happened is the old versions of the DT150 are not exactly the same as the new. I think the older ones were fatter in the bass. Maybe not as many are sold so they are a bit more consistent?
You'd think at premium prices, the companies might be a little more discerning about 'tuning' them. They throw better drivers in but don't match as well as some of us would like or as you say, take the time and trouble to 'fine tune' them. I suppose when you take in the amount of time you take on tuning though, that would have to be factored into cost, so making them really silly prices.
I don't think they really do enough though. You've shown that Frans. Even the mods that you did to the T40 could be almost mechanically reproduced if not down to the fine tuning of the cups that you did. At least that's a step in the right direction.
Now if someone like Sennheiserr sold the HD800 properly 'tuned' as near as dammit to flat, I'd be willing to go to the £1000 that they claim they're worth. Good drivers, matched as closely as possible, tuned to as close to flat would make a nice headphone. That might be worth the premium.
Trouble is that it is possible to get such a good sound from the lower end with care and attention. Like the t40. A damned good headphone at nearly a tenth of the price once it's had some adjustment. Even without the filter to extend the top it's extremely good.
I'll have a look on Jeremy's site to see if he's released a version of the Kameleon. I don't think he has has he? My hd650 is an old version so I might look into a newer one if its brighter. It's just a shame that we have to compensate for quite poor headphones!
Another thing I've found is listening to personal recordings from a digital recorder at high resolution shows just how good a job many headphones do and how much 'atmosphere' information can be missing on commercial recordings. If I make a recording and listen, the clarity and dynamics (not the music!!) is stunning. The ath a-900 produces and ambience that is frighteningly laser like. Not natural though - it brings you too close. If I play a piano and then stick a mic to my chest to record it - I can play the original with the recording and compare. Some like the Senns get very close. The A900 makes the piano seem closer and the Grados make it sound a bit like a cheap piano,which is isn't!!! But they all reproduce 'air' which I rarely hear in recordings. So they are capable of more if the original contains it.
The whole things is so skewed in that recordings are flattened and squashed to be loud, going through mostly flat amps into headphones that have been skewed in order to make the recordings sound better! Something has happened over the past 30 years. Older recordings seem to have been made with more 'care' and headphones pick it up. They might not be as technically 'clean' as modern recordings, but there is a real sense of atmosphere contained in them.
A wonderful example of this is a recording made with just a stereo crossed configuration at a live venue - Jazz at the Pawn Shop. The sound is magical on a good headphone. Also very good on poor ones.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 29, 2014 12:17:04 GMT
Jeremy doesn't mention them on his site a they aren't 'garage 1217' products. he just makes them on demand for USA and Canada residents. Javier builds them for EU and other countries though, but also on demand.
Also the newer HD650's need to be equalized, they just have a tad more treble but are still skewed 'warmish'. You need original pads as well as fake pads most likely alter the FR as well.
EQ'ed there isn't any difference between the old and new HD650 as the compensation modules differ.
Live recordings without any copmpression sound very lifelike on lifelike listening levels. The Edwina Hayes live recordings are also very real (probably more real on speakers) on good headphones.
Jazz at the Pawnshop immerses you in the bar itself. Because of this the coughing, speech, rumours in the background add to that atmosphere.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Dec 29, 2014 13:02:18 GMT
HD650 is always one that I return to and tbh, find it strikes a great balance. Then I get kind of tired of its sound and turn to something more flashy, only to return and think that the Senn was better in the first place.
I must get another set of pads though. I'm using these Chinese ones which do alter their sound and the old Senns had gone soft and flat. So, I went and ordered some new ones from Thomann today!!! Decided that I'll have to sort the 650 out with correct pads.
Comparing the hd650 with the 800 on GE is interesting. Looking at them both makes you think actually, you're not missing that much with the 650. A little less resolution, not a lot. Treble hike on 800 shows but so does the 650 roll away. One area that surprised me looking at it is the bass roll off. It's higher and more than I thought. You've obviously seen it and corrected it with a filter. Mids are lovely.
Quite a few people prefer the 650 to the 800. At lest they're a third or quarter of the price!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2015 17:03:08 GMT
I'm using a parametric EQ with my 650's and they're sounding superb right now. Well, not right now. Right now I'm using speakers, loudly.
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