solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jan 21, 2015 21:11:31 GMT
I see this as slowly reaching their optimal operating point. Tubes, of course, work by temperature and while the cathodes are heated quickly they slowly reach higher temperatures even after more than 10 mins.
Most likely this happens every time you switch it on. With burn-in, usually, a lasting (more permanent) effect is described.
I often experience an increase in fidelity when listening to music for a longer period which I suspect is caused by relaxation, getting into the zone kind of thing.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 21, 2015 21:28:15 GMT
For me, the volume is absolutely critical. Some gear sounds terrible to me and the next day, I'll alter the volume and it sounds great. Often less volume improves sound for me. (Up to a point)
I try to imitate the volume that I think the microphone heard at the venue without amplifying it any more. Less isn't so bad, since it just moves the performers back.
With valves, I wait for a warm up period.
Mind you, none of these are 'burn in'.
I think modern gear is very reliable and pretty consistent. I can't hear headphone cable differences, but I 'believe' that I may have heard speker cable differences when I once used the old Mission flat silver stuff. Solid core and retained the shape that you bent it to. The sound to me seemed thinner.
The funniest thing I thought I heard a difference with was some teabags that you placed on cables. I only heard a difference when I knew they were there. I asked the wife to take them away and put them back randomly and I didn't notice.
I realised that if I bought some, I'd be foolish.
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Post by hifidez on Jan 21, 2015 23:48:19 GMT
Jottings:
HHmmm... I can't hear any difference with any of my 'phones when used with or without a 5m extension lead made with 3 core mains cable. It is worth using a good dedicated headphone amp. Even the diminutive Topping NX-1.
I've used the same fig 8 OFC thick speaker cables for c. 35 yrs... have tried some 'better' QED and NAIM cables but heard no difference so sold the QED and NAIMs at profit on Ebay.
The relevant bit: I'm confident that my speakers developed and improved for about 9 months from new. I'm also confident that I could hear and appreciate subtle changes as I upgraded DACs from 'no DAC' > DacMagic > X-DACv3 > V-DACii > V-90 DAC.
My wireless linked SB touch co-axed into my DAC sounds no different from the equivalent files on CD played directly co-axed from good transport to the same DAC.
Speakers (and headphones) matter. Electronics matter, but only a bit once they are above a certain, easily achieved, level of quality. Assuming they're not totally stupid, wires do not matter significantly enough to warrant any attention.
Get 100 Wpc or more of good quality amplification. Get speakers that work in your room, tweek with a bit of EQ (if you're into 'classical' then slope down from c.150 Hz to 20kHz by 3 to 4 dB and maybe introduce a bit of 'Linkwitz' dip at 3.5kHz for a more natural orchestral timbre).
Vinyl playback systems are SO variable there's no logic.. just buy what gives you pleasure or status... whichever is more important to you.
Very brief summary of my views after 45 years of hi-fi involvement.
It's late and I'm tired.
Derek
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 22, 2015 18:48:16 GMT
Has anything deteriorated in burn in though or has everything improved in this 45 years?
Most people report improvements. In fact, I don't remember seeing anything that got worse.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jan 22, 2015 19:04:10 GMT
Has anything deteriorated in burn in though or has everything improved in this 45 years? Most people report improvements. In fact, I don't remember seeing anything that got worse. My car? It doesn't run as well as it did 13 years ago... Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 22, 2015 19:07:03 GMT
Was it running when you got it then?
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jan 22, 2015 19:20:38 GMT
sort of....
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 22, 2015 19:38:47 GMT
As I get older, I'm burning out!!!
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jan 22, 2015 19:47:33 GMT
I'm younger than you but also feel burn in hasn't done me well either... maybe I'm burnt out too?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 20:21:35 GMT
Valves do need to warm up to be at heir best, Chris. I have my amp on for half an hour before I use it. They don't work as efficiently when cold. I've also noticed this to be true. If I start listening as soon as the protection circuit (?) light extinguishes there's almost no bass at all. Quite disconcerting the first time it happened. Now I wait a bit before listening.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jan 22, 2015 22:21:09 GMT
There is a reason for that of course.
1: Not all tubes heat-up equally fast, some tubes seem to take ages others light up in a flash and glow less bright after start-up. This is by design b.t.w. to get the electrons flowing sooner.
2: If we were aiming for the 'safe side' on the start-up relay we must have made it around a minute or so. Nobody wants to wait that long. Waiting a minute is like forever at such a moment so the start-up time was set so it doesn't seem like its broken and long enough to prevent a 'plop' in the headphones. For some tubes it is long enough, for others it comes in a bit too soon.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 22:58:54 GMT
It's cool for me. I always power up (any amp) and then make a cup of tea. By that time I'm good to go.
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Post by hifidez on Jan 23, 2015 8:07:20 GMT
Has anything deteriorated in burn in though or has everything improved in this 45 years? Most people report improvements. In fact, I don't remember seeing anything that got worse. Agreed. Also.. if sepaker burn-in or run-in exists how do speaker designers allow for this? My main speakers, as I said above, did continue to change & settle down over many months. But, if truth be told, I can't certain it wasn't me getting used to their sound. My wife agrees they did change, and quite a lot too. Were we both 'learning' the speakers' sound? D.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jan 23, 2015 9:15:17 GMT
Speaker manufacturers do know how the properties of units 'change', this is well documented and known amongst designers. Especially the resonance frequency of the woofer and the Q change but only within a certain period. have a look at www.gr-research.com/myths.htm for measurements. Designers usually test, listen and play with filters, tuning etc. and know speakers change. When a speaker is finally ready (in the design phase) it will have had many hours on it already and the result is a speaker that performs as the manufacturer wants with 'burned-in' units. I don't think there are many 'serious' speaker builders around that take a few units, design a cabinet, take a 'standard' crossover filter, slap it together and onece a prototype makes sound they start series production. Cheap speakers may well be produced this way but doubt their owners would care or even notice changes. When they are (mass) produced the same types of units will be used and the same filtering/port settings/enclosures as in the burned in unit. Therfore is is possible that some speakers actually do change during 'burn-in' period. Ported speakers may change more than fully closed speakers because of port tuning. Of course... when you are getting used to a presentation others will have to endure the same thing during the same period. We are all human after all. So... possible your speakers changed, possible it was just a matter of getting used to it, maybe both, who knows for sure. No way to tell unless other users have experienced the same (and wrote about it) or objective measurements exist that show something changes. Do you remember if in that period other things changed as well (decoration, curtians, positioning of anything in the room). When they didn't it could well be the speakerunits changing into their intended modes of operation. Changes in speakers (especially woofers) are of a larger magnitude than midrange and tweeters as well as most HP drivers.
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