Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 21, 2015 21:32:21 GMT
Listening to this more closely tonight on 24/192 FLAC using the Ifi Micro driven from X3 via digital out.
Boy, is this clear and revealing, to say the least.
Unfortunately, so clear that I'm picking up all the awful flaws that have been there from the start. Tape hiss is really there. Compression at times is desperate and I can actually hear 'pumping' levels where some kind of limiter is used very clumsily. Not only that, there is also added distortion on many peaks, making the album sound pretty rough to say the least.
Curiously, the bass lines are quite nicely caught. He's a damned good bass player too.
The sad thing is that this can't be recaptured and on modern equipment, it just sounds pretty gritty which is a shame.
The other thing is the ridiculous prices being asked for in buying these files. Sonically, they're really not good and all. All the hi res does is just show you how bad the engineers messed some things up on this album.
Great pity because it's a great album. Probably best to listen on a Portapro!!!
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Mar 21, 2015 21:55:59 GMT
Such a shame some great albums were so poorly recorded. Some of my favourite Queen albums have such nasty drums tape overload/clipping you wonder if the engineer had gone for some fish'n chips, fallen asleep or was deaf.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 21, 2015 22:24:35 GMT
Yes, it is a real shame. Sad really. It's also compounded by the fact that we are able to hear the music almost under a microscope nowadays and the gear that we now have access to is capable of extraordinary definition which reveals these kinds of flaws with laser like accuracy. The stuff we use now is streets ahead of what we had in the 70s and these older recordings are really showing the problems of the time in recording which got really nasty in the 80s with the arrival of 'perfect sound'!! While it's great to hear the album now in fresh light and pull out minute detail, the flaws in the recording are really quite dreadful. Best part of Led Zep II in hi res for me is the bass playing. When you hear him so plainly, you realise just how on the ball he was. I hate to say this really, but it also reveals (in parts) how Jimmy Page's playing could be a bit hit and miss in some passages. There's one point where his timing goes a bit helter skelter and sloppy. Now all the Jimmy Page fans will go,nuts!!! I think the problem with his timing is that at the time, they probably heard more of a 'wall of sound' and an overall effect whereas we can now get right inside the sound with our laser like equipment.
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 21, 2015 23:34:14 GMT
I was reading a bit about the recording process. It was done during the first half of 1969, mostly while on the road in many different (sometimes cheap poorly equipped studios) locations. We didn't hear all the things you described at the time that is certain. But I do remember hearing tape hiss even on the vinyl when I got a pair of Koss Pro4a's in 1972. With what we have today I can easily hear the difference on the White Album between the eight track songs and the ones done on four track. Tape hiss is very present on tracks that were "bumped down" to open up more room on the tape. It's a bit distracting going back forth. Funny, I remember when Stereophile considered it one of the best recorded albums. I just bought a pair of Koss KSC-75 earphones. I think I am enjoying these older albums more with them than my HD800's. At 1/100th the price! That's this hobby isn't it. Was going to buy the hi-rez download with a 15% off deal but I think I'll pass and just listen to the CD's.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 22, 2015 15:08:42 GMT
That's exactly how I feel with the TH900. it reveals a lot of recording faults, even though many feel that it isn't an analytical headphone, Ron. I find more often now, that the sources are beginning to show and poor recordings are really quite awful to listen to.
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 22, 2015 18:42:41 GMT
I am finding that to be true as well Ian. Case in point. I have a Humple Pie CD I have had for years. Listened to it many times on low fi and mid fi systems. Now, I can not listen to it for more than a few minutes. I find myself skipping to my favorite two songs and then have to stop. My headphone gear is just too revealing sometimes. I usually want to just enjoy the music, not analyze the production of the record. But great recordings are heavenly.
I find myself playing some CDs, like this one, over a pair of $250 speakers and my DVD player and then all is fine. Guess one has to match the recording to the equipment today. If you want to enjoy all of your music collection. No complaints. Glad I have the choices.!
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 22, 2015 18:53:00 GMT
That's exactly how I feel with the TH900. it reveals a lot of recording faults, even though many feel that it isn't an analytical headphone, Ron. I find more often now, that the sources are beginning to show and poor recordings are really quite awful to listen to. I know the TH-900 is not for everyone. And in my brief time with it I did think it soundied better with some tubes in the circuit. But it was one of my favorites, and I listened to just about all the TOTL gear that day. I did find it revealing of poor source material as well, not like the microscope that the HD800 can be, but bad recordings couldn't hide. That sub-bass, so good.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 22, 2015 20:19:25 GMT
That's why I like it, Ron. It doesn't muck about as far as bass goes. It's lifted but the weird thing is that it doesn't seem bass heavy. It reveals poor files easily and distinguishes between amps as well. That is pretty hard to do.
It's better than I thought it would be from reviews and graphs. The graphs put me off a bit and I was between LCDs and this one. In the end, reports of cups cracking etc made me think twice, so I went to try and borrow both to compare. My mate got a TH900 easily, so I tried it and liked it straight away.
What surprises me is what the fr graphs look like in comparison to what I hear. Maybe I've adjusted, but I don't get a massive bass. It could be as Frans has suggested, my hair breaking the seal partially. I do get very low sub bass though. Once heard, sub bass is the one thing I'd miss which is why I decided to keep it.
I really don't want a headphone even if it's ruler flat if the sound isn't right for me. I also prefer the bass to be lifted 3 or 4 db in any case and in all honesty, the TH900 is probably only lifted by a tiny bit more than that in any case.
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 22, 2015 21:46:13 GMT
I know some of the people at the meet where I heard them pulled them off quickly due to the bass. But I found I enjoyed the sound, and if one is spending a lot of hard earned money you should enjoy the sound. It should make you tap your feet and feel what the musicians are trying to communicate. I don't want to feel like I have a job mastering recordings when I listen, and some equipment while technically very good makes me feel that way. As to the hair, it could be. I have same problem if I don't see my barber often enough. Also the TH900's don't seal all that tightly which is probably a good thing for the sound. I just remembered. I heard them again at another meet back in November. Seems crazy but there were so many headphones I lost track.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 22, 2015 22:20:37 GMT
I've seen on some forums, the huge reaction to bass. Almost as though it's offensive. I have no idea why it's just SO offensive other than perhaps a touch of snobbery perhaps? Something I really can't get on with in the audio world.
The same people will go all weird about an hd650 and seem to overlook it's own bass hump so it's not always consistent.
It's only a sound or timbre, so I can't see why it offends some as it seems to.
Quite right .... If it suits you, that's fine. Ultimately, it's only yourself that has to live with it!!
I like a variety of sounds, but none make me rip a headphone off in disgust!!! Just daft.
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 23, 2015 1:31:26 GMT
Some folks have opinions that turn into fact. I see this all the time in the U.S. They must defend their "fact". Disagree and you are attacked. Seems to have gone from politics to audio. Just really weird Ian. And some of this is coming from our generation which is even stranger. Oh well, each to his own. As long as one enjoys what they have.
Here's to a good week ahead for all!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 23, 2015 5:57:37 GMT
Perhaps with our generation, a fear of being 'ripped off'? People become protective of what they decide to buy I guess.
It is funny that we lose site of the fact that it's just hi fi!
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 23, 2015 11:15:52 GMT
I think the "rip-off" factor plays apart. I think all the discussion over hi-rez is a case in point. People wondering if they hear a difference. BTW, do you hear a difference between the wav Led Zep II and the hi-rez?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 23, 2015 16:29:20 GMT
I remeber something different, but it was in the mastering rather than because of the bit rate I think Ron.
I'm just not sure how much is the rip or how much is due to remastering. The hiss levels on the hi res are really quite bad though. Plus distortion and compression!!
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Post by ronzo56 on Mar 24, 2015 1:15:39 GMT
I remeber something different, but it was in the mastering rather than because of the bit rate I think Ron. I'm just not sure how much is the rip or how much is due to remastering. The hiss levels on the hi res are really quite bad though. Plus distortion and compression!! Well you are spot on about the compression. Just looked it up on the Dynamic Range Database and they upped the compression quite a bit towards the transition zone. Does compression tend to increase hiss and distortion? Why do they keep doing this??? They go to all this trouble to transfer the original tapes and them squeeze the life out of them as if they were going to be played on a cheap playback system or in the car. Makes no sense.
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