Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 23, 2016 18:43:04 GMT
That's maybe what it is. The resolution would be no different though. That's why I don't feel that surprised if you hear no difference. It might be one of those theoretical things that no one hears!!!
My Fiios convert dsd back to pcm on the fly. I can't hear anything there either!!!
With bigger files, the main difference that I hear is dynamic range. Whether that's the remastering or the effect of the high resolution, I'm not sure. The sound or timbre remains much the same to me, but that might just be my deafness.
I guess having worked in studios, I kind of hone in to noise and dynamics more easily.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Apr 23, 2016 18:55:00 GMT
my ears are tuned in to the mojo in my system now. i think from memory, it sounds a tad warmer than micro. it will be difficult to decide which one to keep. mojo is much easier to see at a glance re sample frequency, but unlike the micro , you cant tell what level of dsd is playing. mojo also charges quicker and while in use, which is a plus for me. damn good bit of kit, this. AND I HAVE NOT GOT BEER EARS ON TONIGHT!!  i need to correct myself. "i think from memory, it sounds a tad warmer than micro." not really!!! memory is a funny thing. even though i am having trouble with it playing upscaled files, it is still a great piece of kit. |
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Apr 23, 2016 18:56:38 GMT
That's maybe what it is. The resolution would be no different though. That's why I don't feel that surprised if you hear no difference. It might be one of those theoretical things that no one hears!!! My Fiios convert dsd back to pcm on the fly. I can't hear anything there either!!! With bigger files, the main difference that I hear is dynamic range. Whether that's the remastering or the effect of the high resolution, I'm not sure. The sound or timbre remains much the same to me, but that might just be my deafness. I guess having worked in studios, I kind of hone in to noise and dynamics more easily. hang on! so why do we have pcm upsampling to hi-res pcm? |
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 23, 2016 20:26:32 GMT
I don't know Simon. That's the bit I don't understand!!! Someone must know.,,, v
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jello
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Post by jello on Apr 23, 2016 20:27:56 GMT
just ordered an ipurifier2 for my mojo. hopefully this will get rid of the last bit of noise i can hear. wish i hadnt bothered. mojo does not seem to like upscaled files on jriver. no probs with the micro! the mojo may well be for sale very soon. unless, of course i decide i am not hearing much improvement with upscaling. the jury is still out on that. Not tried to upscale before and I'm not too experienced with Jriver so may be doing this wrong but... Just tried a 16/44, 24/96 and a 24/192 track in Jriver with the WASAPI driver selected and all appear to upscale to DSD when I have output encoding set as 'DSD in DoP format' - the sample rate light on the Mojo goes white at least. Change encoding to 'none' and the light then correctly reflects the tracks' native bitrates (red, green & blue respectively). Interestingly if I use Chord's Asio 1.05 driver instead then only the 16/44 track plays smoothly when upscaled. Both the 24/96 and 24/192 do play but playback stutters a lot. As I say though I'm a novice to this so may not be setting things up quite as I should be... |
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Apr 23, 2016 20:47:16 GMT
ASIO? just checked the Mojo's manual at Chords's site and it doesn't mention ASIO support. Have you tried ASIO in native DSD mode with DSD files?
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jello
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Post by jello on Apr 23, 2016 21:05:05 GMT
Hmm, not sure why they don't mention it. As part of their driver installation it installs their own ASIO driver (1.05).
As far as I can tell ASIO is working in what I assume is native DSD mode. Here's how I have things set up - does it look right to you Javier?
-> Tools/Options/Audio Device/ASIO Chord 1.05 [ASIO]
-> Tools/Options/Settings/DSP & Output Format.../Output Encoding: 'DSD in DoP format' (also seems to work if I leave this at the default value of 'none')
-> Tools/Options/Bitstreaming - 'Yes [DSD]' (if I leave this setting as the default 'None (recommended) playback gets stuttery)
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jello
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Post by jello on Apr 23, 2016 21:17:28 GMT
I think WASAPI is more stable with DSD material. At least with JRiver.
I was listening to some DSD tracks with ASIO enabled a few minutes ago and if I went back and forth between webpages in Chrome playback momentarily stopped each and every time. I know Chrome is a bit of a resource hog so possibly I was overloading the CPU.
Then did the same with WASAPI and it seemed a bit more robust. However, whilst playback was uninterrupted Chrome became a bit unresponsive at times.
Edit: seems Kaspersky was running a full scan in the background. Both ASIO and WASAPI playback perfectly smooth now when using Chrome.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Apr 23, 2016 21:28:00 GMT
I think WASAPI is more stable with DSD material. At least with JRiver. I was listening to some DSD tracks with ASIO enabled a few minutes ago and if I went back and forth between webpages in Chrome playback momentarily stopped each and every time. I know Chrome is a bit of a resource hog so possibly I was overloading the CPU. Then did the same with WASAPI and it seemed a bit more robust. However, whilst playback was uninterrupted Chrome became a bit unresponsive at times. that is exactly the problem i have had. but it does not happen when i use the micro idsd. mind you, i had the same fault when using wasapi with mojo. basically i could upscale to 24/192 pcm and it would be fine. anything more and no chance. i monitored the processes in task manager and found there was a momentary surge in cpu usage when switching pages in chrome. and also when starting my email program. but as i said earlier, i am not certain there is a benefit from upscaling anyway. |
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jello
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Post by jello on Apr 23, 2016 22:05:06 GMT
The problem resolved itself for me after Kaspersky finished its scan.
I only have the one DSD album (and it's not to my taste) so haven't really listened enough to know just how stable DSD playback is on my system. Nor do I upscale. Everything else I own is 24/192 or less and with that the Mojo has been rock solid.
From listening to the tracks I tested I'm really not sure if they sounded much different. Possibly there was a very slight difference but could be imagination. Hard to tell because it wasn't an instant switch over and I was aware when the tracks were / weren't being upscaled. The mind is easily tricked and persuaded.
Interesting that the Micro doesn't exhibit the same issues on your PC. I'd assumed it would have. I don't know a lot about DAC design but perhaps the drivers are more mature or Mojo offloads more of the processing to the CPU?
Putting the DSD issues to one side how do you find the Mojo compares with the Micro Simon?
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Apr 24, 2016 7:02:36 GMT
as far as a comparison between the two sq wise it is difficult to evaluate.
as you stated above, it is not possible to switch instantly.
when i first had the mojo i stated i thought it sounded warmer than micro, but that was from memory as i did not have the micro here then.
as it turns out i cant really tell much difference.
Frans once stated that he regarded himself as "dac deaf", though he could tell if a dac was not well implemented. i think this is where i am.
as both units are well implemented, the difference appears negligable.
both units have pluses and minuses for me.
the biggest minus on mojo for me is this problem with the upscaling, but as you hinted, this may be rectified with a future aiso or device driver.
or it may cease to be an issue if i decide upsampling makes no difference to my ageing lugs.
today i plan on getting some native dsd files to try, just to make sure they play.
i did think about selling both units and opting for a teac ud503, as the funds i would receive by selling would nearly cover the cost, BUT.......
a guy over on hf has stated that he had experienced issues with aiso and jriver, on his teac.
so far the sensible thing would be keep the micro. i had a few problems before the board failed. now its been replaced everything seems to work as it should.
plus i can say the support from amr/ifi was top notch. would this be the case with teac? who knows.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Apr 24, 2016 7:45:48 GMT
Hmm, not sure why they don't mention it. As part of their driver installation it installs their own ASIO driver (1.05). As far as I can tell ASIO is working in what I assume is native DSD mode. Here's how I have things set up - does it look right to you Javier? -> Tools/Options/Audio Device/ ASIO Chord 1.05 [ASIO]-> Tools/Options/Settings/DSP & Output Format.../Output Encoding: 'DSD in DoP format' (also seems to work if I leave this at the default value of 'none') -> Tools/Options/Bitstreaming - 'Yes [DSD]' (if I leave this setting as the default 'None (recommended) playback gets stuttery) As I don't have the Mojo I can only go by what is found at their site (http://chordelectronics.co.uk/mojo/). It only mentions DoP and your results confirm native DSD is not supported so in this aspect is less flexible than the micro. No biggie other than the additional bandwidth required (DoP needs 2x the bandwidth of native DSD) but the content is the same once the PCM wrapper is discarded. The reason for this is they are most likely using a USB IC that doesn't support DSD (like CMedia's) and they need to trick it into believing it is receiving PCM. Once the signal reaches the DSP the wrapper is removed and the DSD signal sent to the DAC part. |
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Apr 24, 2016 8:01:57 GMT
"-> Tools/Options/Settings/DSP & Output Format.../Output Encoding: 'DSD in DoP format' (also seems to work if I leave this at the default value of 'none')"
with the value set to "none" it is not converting to dsd so it defaults to pcm output.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Apr 24, 2016 8:44:41 GMT
just downloaded the free dsf files that come bundled with mojo, in stereo 256.
playing in jriver to mojo, still the same. stuttering the moment you open a browser, tab, email.
not impressed.
again its fine with micro, dop or native.
now there is no upscaling going on.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Apr 24, 2016 9:13:58 GMT
just emailed Chord for help.
i will be interested to see if their support is as good as AMR/IFi.
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