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Post by tunkejazz on Oct 9, 2016 8:59:48 GMT
According to the G1217 webpage: "HiFIMan HE-500 (adds some clarity and removes the treble peak)".
If you look at the frequency response of the HE500, it probably means that it will flatten the deep in the mids (from 1000 Hz to ~8000 Hz) and it will remove the peak at around 10000 Hz.
Below 1 kHz the He500 have quite a flat response.
Looking at the FR curves, the HE400i suffers from a similar problem, and I quite like the improvement. How does the modification translate into my ears? Well... I think Frans nailed it: "clarity". The stock HE400i (in comparison) sounds a bit mudded. The added sub-bass is great in the HE400i. Removing the sharp peak at 10 kHz means that instruments with response at those frequencies will not bite your ears as much but you will still hear them perfectly :-)
EDIT: Sorry for the double answer, I think Frans replied much faster ;-)
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Post by disastermouse on Oct 9, 2016 9:58:48 GMT
The HE500 will gain some clarity, some would say you move a few rows to the front in a concert hall. Bass will basically be the same level but because the clarity improves you could also say the bass/mids become slightly less 'warm'. The treble quality will improve as the peak (you hear as 'detail' in cymbals etc.) will be lowered where the frequencies around it that are boosted will compensate as they are more present. The effect will be very similar as those who have the HE560 and LCD2 as the filter basically is very similar. It's not so much the screen colour (black or silver) what most believe is the culprit but more of a question how stiff the pads are. When you have new pads on them you need the 'silver' HD650 module. This only slightly changes the sound... you will notice more 'body' and rumble and it will be just slightly more 'clear'. You can also clearly see though the back of the HD650 which one you have.  You can test how 'soft' the pads are by pulling them off the HD650 and ly them them on a table. Then put something on it which weighs approx 1kg and see how much the pads compress. Here (in the HD650 section) you can see the differences. The X2 has more bass and is slightly less 'warm' sounding and has more upper treble than X1 so could try to extrapolate based on comparisons here and there (Tyll's as well as others) and compare the differences to what I measured in the X1 here.. I'm almost certain that I have the old HD650, judging mostly by the age, lack of pad changes, and the fact that the description of the stock 'black' HD650 very much matches what I hear when I listen to mine. As for the HE-500, They do not sound very much like 'warm' headphones to me. I wear glasses, but I don't notice much change between glasses on vs glasses off. They sound somewhat 'dry' compared to the X2. They are much clearer than the HD650 and certainly sound less warm. The addition of the Bifrost MB made a lot more difference in my chain than I thought it would. Individual sounds have 'shape'. Separation has always been pretty good with HE-500, but Bifrost MB improved it. I'm a little concerned about the 'less warm' description because I don't want them to sound dryer than they already do. I very much do detect the treble peak, though. A few final questions: I've seen reference to a Kameleon 'amplifier', but I thought this was something that you place between the DAC and the amp, not an amp itself. Is there another Kameleon product? Is that the sounce of my confusion? I saw it referenced in the HD650 graphs you linked to. Lastly, if I get the PSU version, can I run it passively with my Polaris or is it either PSU that is always self-powered or passive which is never self-powered? |
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Oct 9, 2016 17:06:14 GMT
Still tinkering - I dig it  A little funky and out of our norm - but welcoming at the same time. - Left side switch, a heavy duty slide switch turns the filter on / off. The right side switch turns Kameleon on / off which also turns your amplifier on / off (Good stuff Frans!)  looks great, guys!!! will the unit's footprint be similar to my Ember, so i could stack them? |
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jello
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Post by jello on Oct 9, 2016 17:33:11 GMT
I'm almost certain that I have the old HD650, judging mostly by the age, lack of pad changes, and the fact that the description of the stock 'black' HD650 very much matches what I hear when I listen to mine. As for the HE-500, They do not sound very much like 'warm' headphones to me. I wear glasses, but I don't notice much change between glasses on vs glasses off. They sound somewhat 'dry' compared to the X2. They are much clearer than the HD650 and certainly sound less warm. The addition of the Bifrost MB made a lot more difference in my chain than I thought it would. Individual sounds have 'shape'. Separation has always been pretty good with HE-500, but Bifrost MB improved it. I'm a little concerned about the 'less warm' description because I don't want them to sound dryer than they already do. I very much do detect the treble peak, though. A few final questions: I've seen reference to a Kameleon 'amplifier', but I thought this was something that you place between the DAC and the amp, not an amp itself. Is there another Kameleon product? Is that the sounce of my confusion? I saw it referenced in the HD650 graphs you linked to. Lastly, if I get the PSU version, can I run it passively with my Polaris or is it either PSU that is always self-powered or passive which is never self-powered? Can hopefully help with a couple of your questions. --- The Kameleon in-line filter with PSU can be used passively with your Polaris without any problems. You just plug your Polaris PSU into the Kameleon and then a short (presumably supplied) connecting power lead from the Kameleon to your Polaris. If your Wife is using it plug in the supplied PSU but not the connecting power cord. --- The Kameleon amp you saw mention of is strictly a DIY project at present (not sure about long term). There are 2 versions, portable and desktop, and basically combine the Kameleon and an amp in a single enclosure. --- Suspect the pads you have on your HE-500 are Focus pads. Or possibly Focus pads A (a pad used on pre-production HE-560). Which perhaps begs the question (one for Frans or Jeremy I think) if the measurements the filter is based on were taken with stock pads is there a risk with after market pads that the filter may not have the desired effect? Depending on how much the pads 'colour' the sound I would assume that was a distinct possibility. |
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 9, 2016 18:18:24 GMT
Indeed, I suspect the Focus (A) pads are used which require a different filter.
The 'transformation' from an older HD650 is much bigger than that from a newer HD650.
I prefer the 'older' pads myself, much more comfy than the newer and much stiffer pads.
The stock HE500 is 'warm' sounding and lacks some clarity. This lack of clarity is masked by the treble peak.
For focus pads it will be different.
I would either have to measure the headphones or find some reliable plots showing the differences with original pads.
From those I can calculate a filter for HE500 with Focus pads ... but WHICH focus pads and is there a noticeable difference between the 2 ?
Jellofund explained the Kameleon amp thing perfectly.
When you already own amps, no need for a Kameleon amp, the stand-alone filter will be enough.
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Post by disastermouse on Oct 9, 2016 20:57:15 GMT
Indeed, I suspect the Focus (A) pads are used which require a different filter. The 'transformation' from an older HD650 is much bigger than that from a newer HD650. I prefer the 'older' pads myself, much more comfy than the newer and much stiffer pads. The stock HE500 is 'warm' sounding and lacks some clarity. This lack of clarity is masked by the treble peak. For focus pads it will be different. I would either have to measure the headphones or find some reliable plots showing the differences with original pads. From those I can calculate a filter for HE500 with Focus pads ... but WHICH focus pads and is there a noticeable difference between the 2 ? Jellofund explained the Kameleon amp thing perfectly. When you already own amps, no need for a Kameleon amp, the stand-alone filter will be enough. Wait, because I have focus pads, I can't use the HE-500 filter? Bummer. |
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Post by solderdude on Oct 10, 2016 5:04:08 GMT
Well I found some measurements of the HE400S with both normal pads and Focus pads (the hybrid ones)
Looks like it only changes everything below 1000Hz.
This changes the bass character of this headphone.
It will be more neutral.
The filter thus will still work as it only addresses the higher frequencies.
It will improve clarity and remove the treble peak and add some bass extension (body).
In other words the treble will be of higher quality, not quantity.
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jello
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Post by jello on Oct 10, 2016 7:02:32 GMT
Guessing that's Marv's measurements on SBAF? He also measured the HE-560 with both Focus pad and Focus (A) pad. iirc down low there were no real differences but higher up the (A) pad reduced the 4-5kHz peak but slightly increased treble quantity overall I think. On the 400s 'normal' pads = Velpads. These are not the same pads as the velour pads found on the HE-500, so it may not be safe to assume that because the Velpads and Focuspads measure the same below 1kHz that the (older) velour pads will necessarily follow suit. Whilst I had both I did not listen to the velours as only bought them for their removable retention rings (rings are glued in place on the Velpads) so can't say if they are audibly different. But the Velpads I have here are quite shallow and are angled whereas my recollection of the velours (take with a pinch of salt) is that they were non-angled and a bit deeper so this may affect the sound and without comparative measurements for these pads vs either Velpads or Focuspads I suspect it will be hard to confidently come to any meaningful conclusions. I noticed on HF that another HE-500 owner has also been eyeing up the Kameleon. He is using aftermarket pads so I don't think that folk are necessarily considering the fact that by 'modding' their headphones (which can affect the FR) they may be changing the 'baseline' and potentially defeating the purpose of using the filter, and in some cases they may end up with a worse sounding headphone. jhelms - perhaps it might be an idea to err on the side of caution and add a very clear qualifying statement that unless otherwise stated the modules have been designed to work with the headphones listed using stock pads and without any other mods having been applied? Might save on some confusion, complaints and unfair impressions being written on forums? |
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Post by jhelms on Oct 10, 2016 13:38:49 GMT
Guessing that's Marv's measurements on SBAF? He also measured the HE-560 with both Focus pad and Focus (A) pad. iirc down low there were no real differences but higher up the (A) pad reduced the 4-5kHz peak but slightly increased treble quantity overall I think. On the 400s 'normal' pads = Velpads. These are not the same pads as the velour pads found on the HE-500, so it may not be safe to assume that because the Velpads and Focuspads measure the same below 1kHz that the (older) velour pads will necessarily follow suit. Whilst I had both I did not listen to the velours as only bought them for their removable retention rings (rings are glued in place on the Velpads) so can't say if they are audibly different. But the Velpads I have here are quite shallow and are angled whereas my recollection of the velours (take with a pinch of salt) is that they were non-angled and a bit deeper so this may affect the sound and without comparative measurements for these pads vs either Velpads or Focuspads I suspect it will be hard to confidently come to any meaningful conclusions. I noticed on HF that another HE-500 owner has also been eyeing up the Kameleon. He is using aftermarket pads so I don't think that folk are necessarily considering the fact that by 'modding' their headphones (which can affect the FR) they may be changing the 'baseline' and potentially defeating the purpose of using the filter, and in some cases they may end up with a worse sounding headphone. jhelms - perhaps it might be an idea to err on the side of caution and add a very clear qualifying statement that unless otherwise stated the modules have been designed to work with the headphones listed using stock pads and without any other mods having been applied? Might save on some confusion, complaints and unfair impressions being written on forums? Absolutely fair to say and I will include it. I think one would have to be daft though to buy a filter for headphone A, then complain when they have different pads, mods and such - that it is not ideal match (but we all know how those things go lol). Currently, we call out the headphone and the filter is designed for a specific mod (pad type and such) it is noted. |
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jello
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Post by jello on Oct 10, 2016 14:34:03 GMT
Absolutely fair to say and I will include it. I think one would have to be daft though to buy a filter for headphone A, then complain when they have different pads, mods and such - that it is not ideal match (but we all know how those things go lol). Currently, we call out the headphone and the filter is designed for a specific mod (pad type and such) it is noted. Oh yeah, I'm in complete agreement with you! But I suppose in some cases folk buy used headphones where the previous owner has already replaced the pads so they may just assume that's how their headphone sounds and have not given much thought to possible FR implications. Or possibly they changed pads for comfort reasons and found there to be no audible difference. Did notice that you'd added a note beside some headphones re. different pads but I suppose there is always the risk that someone zeroes in on their own particular headphone and fails to spot the distinction....again not your fault but sometimes it's better to draw attention to these things for avoidance of doubt!! |
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Crispy
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Post by Crispy on Oct 10, 2016 15:57:40 GMT
Still tinkering - I dig it A little funky and out of our norm - but welcoming at the same time. - Left side switch, a heavy duty slide switch turns the filter on / off. The right side switch turns Kameleon on / off which also turns your amplifier on / off (Good stuff Frans!) That looks really cool Jeremy  If it is still in progress I would probably say you don't need 2 Kameleons on the top plate? and maybe it would look better with only the big one on the right of the lettering? then again maybe not  |
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Post by marveltone on Oct 10, 2016 16:13:17 GMT
Maybe the two Kameleons are "before" and "after" processing? 😉
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Post by jhelms on Oct 10, 2016 16:15:50 GMT
Ha! Just thought it looked cool - visual tweaking still in progress  |
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 10, 2016 18:02:21 GMT
I'm almost certain that I have the old HD650, judging mostly by the age, lack of pad changes, and the fact that the description of the stock 'black' HD650 very much matches what I hear when I listen to mine. As for the HE-500, They do not sound very much like 'warm' headphones to me. I wear glasses, but I don't notice much change between glasses on vs glasses off. They sound somewhat 'dry' compared to the X2. They are much clearer than the HD650 and certainly sound less warm. The addition of the Bifrost MB made a lot more difference in my chain than I thought it would. Individual sounds have 'shape'. Separation has always been pretty good with HE-500, but Bifrost MB improved it. I'm a little concerned about the 'less warm' description because I don't want them to sound dryer than they already do. I very much do detect the treble peak, though. A few final questions: I've seen reference to a Kameleon 'amplifier', but I thought this was something that you place between the DAC and the amp, not an amp itself. Is there another Kameleon product? Is that the sounce of my confusion? I saw it referenced in the HD650 graphs you linked to. Lastly, if I get the PSU version, can I run it passively with my Polaris or is it either PSU that is always self-powered or passive which is never self-powered? When you buy it with a PSU you can use it on that supplied PSU and run the Polaris of its own PSU. Or you can plug the Polaris PSU into the Kameleon and the Kameleon into the Polaris in which case you can switch the Polaris on and off with the switch on the filter. Currently looking into the X2. When comparing the X2 and HD650 (old) based on graphs then I would say that: The X2 has more and deeper bass. The HD650 is much warmer. The HD650 has a slightly more 'presence/clarity'. The X2 has slightly more treble. Based on your description of your HE500 and the fact you can hear the peak and it doesn't sound warm I would deduct that you have Focus pads and not Focus A pads. The filter will just give slightly more clarity and 'body' and treble quality will increase (quantity will be about the same) Will re-calculate the HE500 filter for Focus pads (and maybe even for Focus A pads) as well. |
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Oct 10, 2016 18:13:37 GMT
Still tinkering - I dig it A little funky and out of our norm - but welcoming at the same time. - Left side switch, a heavy duty slide switch turns the filter on / off. The right side switch turns Kameleon on / off which also turns your amplifier on / off (Good stuff Frans!) looks great, guys!!! will the unit's footprint be similar to my Ember, so i could stack them? just realised what i stupid question i have asked. if i stack them i wont see the cnc'd cover i have ordered!! |
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A little funky and out of our norm - but welcoming at the same time. 
