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Post by c61746961 on Mar 9, 2016 15:37:09 GMT
Ian, I hope the mk3 is yours to keep because it's very easy to make it sound better. The pair I have was graciously loaned by BMF and I'm currently working on a few modding guides for it, I've been swamped with stuff so it will have to wait a bit.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 9, 2016 16:05:04 GMT
Yes, I've been given one. I quite like it actually. Been listening most of today. Pads are a bit hard but I have heard that the Shure pads don't help it.
There are really two things that I think could be improved. Low bass and maybe the peak in the treble, although the peak doesn't wreck it for me. I'm just aware of it on consonants in speech.
There's no real info around yet as to how to get them sounding better. Mostly subjective improvements, but tbh, I'd rather see the improvements as measurements. I was considering ZMF pads (I think they're called). The cowhide ones, not lamb since the lamb apparently warms them up a lot. I suspect more has to be done though in order to make those pads work since they put the driver further back.
It's a very good headphone imo.
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Post by c61746961 on Mar 9, 2016 17:34:50 GMT
The guides I'm making are complemented with measurements. I tried the 840 pads and the pleather is too thick where it secures to the baffle and it blocks the airflow to the vents, so the bass gets huge, it behaves somewhat like a 'naked driver' mk2.
I'm starting with the stock pads but plan to cover a few others, including one from ZMF. I'll share the info here.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 9, 2016 17:57:55 GMT
Thanks, that'll be great.
I don't like to try changing things by ear and much prefer to see what's going on. It's so easy to be fooled.
To my ears, the mk3 isn't too skewed actually. Listening to orchestral music on the radio shows that it's pretty good tonally and voices don't show much of a bloom either. So it's not actually too bad with those stock pads for me. I can hear a steely secrion in the treble, so that's probably the peak up there.
I played some electronic music with a lot of sub bass and it is there, just lower in volume than I'm used to. Clarity in the bass is very good though.
So it looks like the pads need to be secured to the first plate in order for it to 'blow through' into the chamber below? Makes it perhaps difficult to use any of the 'wrap around' types of pads.
Really, the Mk3 is quite different to the Mk2 and I found the hf thread too wide because it includes the T20, 40 and 50 and then someone was describing Mk2 mods .... So it was difficult to decipher.
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Post by c61746961 on Mar 9, 2016 20:40:36 GMT
The pads need to be secured to the actual baffle for the stock tuning to work, it's tuned to leak a lot of pressure (hence the higher distortion). Most pads that fit the mk2 will fit the mk3, some of them will have 'lips' thin enough to work like the stock pads, but some are a bit large or thick and block the baffle ports. The older HM5 pleather pads work, for instance, but they impart a kinda nasty treble peak.
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Post by noobhead on Mar 11, 2016 12:16:00 GMT
I have been using the th500rp for a few weeks now, and I think it uses the MK3 driver as the measurements on SABF shows a very similar FR to the MK3. I have to say, despite the early bass roll off, it's actually quite well balanced and that the subbass appear to be attenuated instead of absent. what I like about it is that it reminds me of sealed atc monitors, lithe yet weighted, not thin sounding at all. I realise that my HD650 measures much better technically, however, there is a "seductiveness" that fostex imparts which I do not "feel" when using the HD650s.
(they are all driven via a chord mojo)
I have both the th500rp and the th600, and I often daydream about switching drivers (planar into the sealed th600 and vice versa). While I realise that this is a DIY forum, but tbh, I am too chicken shit to mod the fostexes lol
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 11, 2016 12:34:41 GMT
I've had a T40, T50 and a TH900 for some time now and like every one of them. Solderdude odded my T40 so I kept the T50 uunmodded except for pads. The Shure padsreally helped the sound but left a mid bass hump, but I actually like that!!
That T50 is a Mk2 but this Mk3 version is extremely good imo. There is a top spike but I don't find it too bad. As you say, there is a sub bass but less of it. I tested that with the Rite of Spring reordings that I have and believe me, when the bass drum hits, the headphone goes for it. So I actually liike the pads that come with it for sound tbh, except for their comfort. They are quite hard and shallow but OK for about 1 - 2 hours.
The Mk 3 is superb with speech reproduction too. I listen to quite a lot of spoken word stuff and it is one of the few that doesn't plant a bloom on top. That's always a good sign to me of any headphone doing well. I always find speech a giveaway and then I test the extremes with music recordings.
I'm not really sure whether I want to mod them. I don't mind the sparkle in the top but wouldn't mind the bass being more extended, as long as it didn't whack anywhere else. Sometimes, a mod trades off other things.
I'm using the T50 mk3 a lot actually, because there is something really nice about its tonality, plus it has more sparkle than the HD650. Soetimes, if I think I'm missing something, I go back to the hd650 and find that's the same, so in fact, I'm not missing anything. Haven't learnt to fully trust the headphone yet so if I hear what I think might be a problem, I check with the Senns and find that it's the recording!!
I'm guessing that the mk2 is a good modding one, but not so sure about these because it's already pretty good. I've seen some mods out there but it's guesswork and I don't like that tbh. I used to do that myself, but it's SO inaccurate.
For me, just extend the bass with more volume and more comfortable pads and it's a great headphone. There might be some pads that would do the bass for me, you never know!!
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Post by noobhead on Mar 11, 2016 12:43:15 GMT
Rabbit, headfier Zach of ZMF are now modding MK3s, he managed to bring out the subbass if his own FR charts are accurate. Since he is selling them, I don't think he is sharing his tips tho. here's the page on his commercial site: www.zmfheadphones.com/order-the-zmf/zmf-classic
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 11, 2016 13:02:25 GMT
Yes, I've seen it. The bloody prices though?
I was considering just those pads but judging by what I've read, I'm wondering whether they might suck out the mids and boost mid bass. He does his mods very much in conjunction with the pads so I guess the tuning has to be sorted once they're in place.
The pads look drop dead gorgeous and look really comfortable, which is why I was considering them. I'd like to read more about what they do to the sound from someone else though, not the seller!!
Someone told me that the hm5 pads suck out the mids. The Shure pads sound a bit 'off'. So I'm a bit hesitant about doing too much to the T50 because I do actually like it quite a lot.
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Post by noobhead on Mar 11, 2016 13:12:40 GMT
I wonder if the th500rp's angled pads helped couple your ears better... however they are circular not oval... hq-audio.ru/obzor_naushnikov/fostex-th500rp/they are comfy as fark, possibly overpriced as they use the same driver, but for chicken shit (non) modders like me, post discount, I don't feel gipped.
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Post by noobhead on Mar 11, 2016 13:17:08 GMT
Yes, I've seen it. The bloody prices though? I was considering just those pads but judging by what I've read, I'm wondering whether they might suck out the mids and boost mid bass. He does his mods very much in conjunction with the pads so I guess the tuning has to be sorted once they're in place. The pads look drop dead gorgeous and look really comfortable, which is why I was considering them. I'd like to read more about what they do to the sound from someone else though, not the seller!! Someone told me that the hm5 pads suck out the mids. The Shure pads sound a bit 'off'. So I'm a bit hesitant about doing too much to the T50 because I do actually like it quite a lot. fwiw, from his YouTube posts it would appear that he front damped the mk2s with felt and sponge, on top of those ear pads. no clue as to how he treated the insides tho, most likely modding the filter paper, I suppose...
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 11, 2016 13:17:53 GMT
I know how you feel about modding. Probably the same as me. I'm always worried I'm going to break something and mess it up!!
Frans modded a T40 for me and that is absolutely brilliant. Sub bass and flat as anything. So they are capable of going down very low, it's just finding a good combination.
I like the mk3 a lot though so I'm kind of loathe to do too much to it tbh. I'm ok with pads, but opening up might end in disaster .....
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 11, 2016 14:56:19 GMT
I just swapped to HM5 pleather pads. What a job that was. While I was at it, I took a look inside the cups. Like an empty hall, so lovely and resonant in thre for sure!! At least the solder joints look nice.
First I tried smothering both baffles with the pads. Too fat and bloated. It's passable as a bad headphone, but there is a nice layer of mud in the bass. I kind of expect more bass from the hm5's since most headphones take on a monster sound with them.
Fitting the edges of the pads. Into the baffle plate grooves so that it gets its resonant chamber back againlowered the bass quite a bit and the clarity came back.
The sub bass starts to appear but isn't there properly. I went to a YELLO track to check with Senn hd650, T40 mk 2 (modded) and T50 mk3. The T40 sub bass is so good that you can hear a very strong lower bass rhythm going on. In fact, it's absolutely clearly defined.
With the hd650, you are just 'aware' of that sub bass line. (Just)
Back to the T40 and it's clearly there and so well defined that it's unbelievable.
Then the T50 with pads - very similar level to the hd650 in the sub bass but more defined than the Senn in the top. However, there's a lift in the mid bass that I don't like so it's back to square one.
So that sub bass still hasn't risen properly. It's starting to appear. I tried loading the front with thick tissue just to see if changing the physical impedance would make the headphone perhaps even less sensitive but supply more down there, but it didn't do anything like as much as I would have liked.
So I'm left with still a fairly good headphone, as long as the pads are tucked into the gap between the baffles, but in comparison to the mighty T40, that sub bass isn't really there yet. It's a lot more comfortable though so I'm going to leave the HM5 pads for now. I am curious about those zmf ones now, since these ones are working up to a point.
I know that I read somewhere that bass could be improved by opening some holes on the front of the baffle. I might have a look. I don't want more bass really though, I want the sub bass to appear properly and well defined.
One thing though, it does become painfully obvious how the HD650 doesn't get down there in stock form.It really doesn't. This track had a rhythmic thing going on down there which is plain as your nose on the T40, but barely existent on the hd650. If you didn't know it was there, you wouldn't hear it with the Senn. (Or the T50)
Fitting the pads is fiddly on the T50 mk3. It's easier to just grapple with the cup and stretch the pad on rather than 'feed' it on. It seems to jump in on its own then. I took the baffle off to see if that made it easier, but it doesn't.
At least it's a comfortable headphone now though but not as good for speech.
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Post by c61746961 on Mar 11, 2016 16:26:12 GMT
Ian, if you want more bass/extension you need to close the baffle vents, see the graph I posted, the downside is that without a bit more damping inside the cups the upper midrange recession will be more evident. The older HM5 pleather pads impart a nasty treble spike compared to the stock ones. If you want to achieve the results I posted you have to get a hold of some cosmetic sponge pads, they are very dense open cell foam and are usually found on the cosmetics aisle of the supermarket or cosmetic stores. They look like this: Keep in mind that they have to be made out of foam, some are latex, some are polyurethane, some are rubber, but all of those that work are open-cell dense foam (see the pictures of my mk2 mod back on this thread, that's the kind of cosmetic pad but that one was cut, not punched). If you find the round ones you will need a paper punch to punch a ~7mm hole in the pad that will be aligned with the hole on the damping paper once you close down the cups, best way to do this is to tape the pad to the driver in a position that will fit between the posts when you close the cups, then feel with your finger for the hole and mark the position with a sharpie, double-check that it's aligned by lifting the pad where the hole is and then take it out and make the hole, you can double-side-tape the pads in place aligned with the driver hole afterward to finalize the cup mod. The pad has to seal with the driver back everywhere but the punched hole. If you do what I described you will have a flat-ish headphone leaning on thin and bright sounding (see the graph I posted), now you can play with sealing the baffle ports with small pieces of tape one by one until you are satisfied with the bass level. That's it. There's very little need for guesswork or exotic materials here, that's why I'm calling it the BDSM (Brain-Dead Simple Mod). If you want to lower the treble you can use 1 or more 'plies' of kleenex tissue to put over the driver below the gray foam (each has 3 plies), you can use the foam as a cutting template. I will finish a pictorial somewhere during this month. Good luck.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 11, 2016 16:42:55 GMT
Thanks for that. I've been listening this afternoon with hm5 and tried blocking the vents on the back of the cups. Too much in the top and still needs more in the bass. Also, the presence seems to have faded back, so I'm not too keen on that tbh. So the hm5 pleather pads aren't too good.
I think I'll stick the standard pads back for now and wait for pics. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by baffle vents. I took a look at the baffles but couldn't see any.
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