Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 16, 2017 16:50:37 GMT
I often hear orchestral soloists and singers moving their heads from side to side as well. I also notice it if I use a stereo Lavalier mic with my movie cameras. If I talk while filming and move my head, I really can hear it in the playback.
To get around that, I change it for a mono Lavalier mic so the clues aren't there.
That's when I have the mic very close though. With a stereo mic on the camera (which isn't the best thing to do) you don't get the same effect because they're further away. I often use a mono shotgun mic on camera though since it rejects side sound better and so the speech seems clearer.
I think you are right Sergey, we all hear the same thing but interpret differently. I am quite sensitive to hiss, buzz or hums but I think that's because I've almost been trained to listen out for it over many years of live performance. Stage gear can be remarkably noisy quite often but normally, the sound is very loud by comparison so the signal to noise ratio drops. However, in studio is different if sound is taken via a close mic to a speaker. The noise can be high in relation to the sound.
Mics for a full orchestra is pretty complex because they not only have levels to get right from each instrument in relation to the others but the very room that they sometimes record in can have all kinds of reflections and even resonances that somehow sound worse very often on a mic feed.
I was listening to a jazz binaural recording yesterday which is absolutely remarkable. There's no doubt that there are some very talented recording engineers about.
It's called A Kiss in the Dark by Alexis Cole and it is truly stunning. Small set up, but the timbres captured and the pure sound that the engineers have captured is just amazing. It's in high resolution and is binaural which helps the sense of space enormously in a headphone and it's an absolute delight to listen to.
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rostele2
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Post by rostele2 on May 16, 2017 17:35:01 GMT
Some time I had been listening this record of Mahler's "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" performed by Anne Sofie von Otter and Thomas Quasthoff ...I discovered that Thomas just ardently turn or swing his head from left to right in phase with music he singing so the soundwave carrying his voice instantly changed direction . It was astounding ! God bless the art of sound engineers . I doubt very much if Quastoff was moving at all. I also recorded him in Colmar in Spivakov's festival. Are you aware he is so severely disabled he can hardly move much at all? Mics for a full orchestra is pretty complex because they not only have levels to get right from each instrument in relation to the others but the very room that they sometimes record in can have all kinds of reflections and even resonances ... I was listening to a jazz binaural recording yesterday which is absolutely remarkable. There's no doubt that there are some very talented recording engineers about. A Kiss in the Dak by Alexis Cole a....It's in high resolution and is binaural which helps the sense of space enormously in a headphone and it's an absolute delight to listen to. You can record an orchestra with 2 or 4 microphones extremely successfully. I don't think it's complex at all, just as Gerzon rightly says, the science is getting the placing right. One of my sound engineers made some of the most fantastic Jazz recordings ever (ANTIBES) with the really amazing and almost unobtainable Sonypocket DAT. We all wish we could still buy them!  He plugged a pair of headphones into them as microphones. You should try it sometime. It works brilliantly if you use the right headphones. www.sonicstudios.com/index.htm#tcd-d8 |
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 16, 2017 18:10:19 GMT
Sergey, have you ever heard a binaural recording on a headphone?
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sekar
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Post by sekar on May 16, 2017 18:36:25 GMT
Ian , I've heared some demo binaural recodings on my GMP 400 HP . It were just demo recordings no real serious classic staff was presented. Same ideas were exploited: let's come frome this corner to this one and come around , no music. My last musical discovery was concerned with "ALPHA" european recording label. Recordings performed under their label offer a lot of space and richness of timbres , usually it's a kind of medieval and baroque style. Try 'Le Poeme Harmonique' under direction of Vincent Dumestre. They presents medieval French music - very simple melodies . I listened many times this one : www.amazon.com/Plaisir-DAmour-Chansons-Romances-DAutrefois/dp/B00C38JNXW/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494959003&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=Le+Poeme+Harmonique+%282004%29+Plaisir+d%27amour . This medieval french music with combination of bagpipes and medieval string instruments put you in a kind of hypnotic state .... I tried to listen this record with Stax 700 setup at our Hi-Fi HP Show and had been emotionally exhausted after just 15-20 minutes of listening . I was forced to finish listening and leave the show . To much emotions were applied with a bit related subject . |
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 16, 2017 18:54:00 GMT
Good binaural recordings work really well on headphones, but as you say, many are kind of exaggerated and only demonstrate tricks.
You become more aware of the room that the music is played in and the sound gains a lovely sense of air. Are you able to play high resolution files or convert files?
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sekar
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Post by sekar on May 16, 2017 19:26:00 GMT
My old multibit DAC doesn't support Hi-Res , 16/44.1/48 and HDCD only. I wish to give a try 24/96 for classical staff but it needs for some possible upgrades for DAC to be completed. I'm not sure 24/96 adds some spatial super features may be additional smoothness . My DAC supports 24/44.1 records also so i've tried 24 bit version of this one www.amazon.com/Sogno-Barocco-Monteverdi/dp/B0089N47KE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494962452&sr=8-1&keywords=Sogno+Barocco. According to my current perception, IMHO 24 bit provides some smoothness a bit but nothing more. To fully evaluate richness of the sound 24/44.1 may possibly offer i need to complete current rebuilding of my HP Amp though. |
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 16, 2017 19:48:52 GMT
The improvements are debatable for some perhaps. I notice a better dynamic range from some high res files. Unfortunately, some of the commercial high res files have a dubious source and so are high res in numbers only but contain no more information than something lower.
A good 'un sounds great though. So many variables that you might hear differences on one setup and not another. Even down to the player or software used on a computer.
Problem in the hifi world as well is also ego and how some use high res as a kind of status thing and claim that others are deaf if they don't hear differences. It used to bother me but now it doesn't worry me in the slightest.
I think if someone is so hung up on file formats then they're hardly listening to the music. Just the technicalities.
I sure appreciate a well recorded hi res file though when it's done well. Not always the case though tbh.
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rostele2
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Post by rostele2 on May 16, 2017 20:12:39 GMT
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 19, 2017 8:48:56 GMT
Que ?
What's your point?
Or is this self-adoration again?
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rostele2
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Post by rostele2 on May 19, 2017 9:58:46 GMT
No indeed not.
I don't think I will ever play like that at 90yrs old. I wish!
What could ever be wrong with recording the world's greatest living violinist FFS?!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 19, 2017 10:02:14 GMT
Nothing.
So what was your point? What were you trying to prove this time?
Sending a post with a recording and 'voila' is an example of a binaural recording .... yes. What about it?
Yet again, an example of how wonderful your recordings are and how crap other engineers and musicians are?
Hence the narcissism comment ....
I'm lost as to exactly what you're getting at other than you made this recording.
Everyone is wrong except you aren't they? Sergey is wrong to suppose that a singer can move his head and he can hear it on a recording because he's disabled? Oh ... sorry, you've recorded him btw.
Sergey can hear movement clues in a recording, so you barge in to say how poor the recording is and what exactly is wrong with it. I would LOVE to see the engineer step in and chat with you. So Sergey is wrong yet again?
Result is Sergey gets shut down by your crass comment and no one else wants to speak.
Think about other people a little more and perhaps you'll get feedback but while you put people down with this kind of thing, you'll not get a lot from anyone.
I'm now going into 'silent' mode because it's just painful to watch and you can continue your self chat.
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rostele2
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Post by rostele2 on May 19, 2017 11:54:40 GMT
Nothing. So what was your point? What were you trying to prove this time? Sending a post with a recording and 'voila' is an example of a binaural recording .... yes. What about it? Yet again, an example of how wonderful your recordings are and how crap other engineers and musicians are? Everyone is wrong except you aren't they? Sergey is wrong to suppose that a singer can move his head and he can hear it on a recording because he's disabled? Oh ... sorry, you've recorded him btw. 1/ The recording I posted is NOT Binaural. Not at all. It's simply done with 4 microphones in a single point source. 2 cardios and 2 cross connected omnis. This is the best way ever to get compatibility between both headphone and speaker listening, something that binaural (or dummy head) struggles with, unless it's very cleverly done. Actually the sound engineer who was present, and is a STUDENT, had never seen anything like it in his life, and neither had the Estonian radio who stuck a Decca triangle in there and failed. The orchestra was conducted by Paavo Jarvi who is not an unknown. Ivry happens to be a personal friend of many years. He was actually very ill the day he played there, sorry to say. An incredible musician, who never plays the same piece twice the same way. If you asked Dumay he would say the same. Despite the low bit rate mp3, you won't find a single instability in the above recording, and the acoustic is 100% natural with no compression. How do you get that result? 2/ The recording with Pires and Dumay, is poor. It should never be possible for the violinist to be moving around unstably in the stereo image to this extent. It also shouldn't have obvious compression artefacts. Have another listen, and instead of knocking me, take a closer look and you will maybe learn something. That comes from placing a stereo pair of microphones in the wrong places and recording in a studio acoustic? From how it sounds it's been done with a load of spaced omnis, so that both instruments are bleeding back and forth across both channels. (Danger of using omni mics in a studio then adding a load of false reverb using a Lexicon or something similar). When you use compression and an artificial reverb you always get this strange pumping effect as it decays. If the recording with the singer is unstable, same cause, same effect. Location is everything in classical ensemble work,- if in doubt use ORTF, and work from there, that's what we were always taught. If you don't mind me asking, WTF is wrong with criticising the way many recordings are done? 90% of commercial recordings are fit for the bin anyhow. I've done plenty which weren't up to scratch too. |
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 19, 2017 14:24:49 GMT
What's this all about?
This is just your opinion and your ideas of where a mics should be placed. Your way or no way. In live concerts, I am often aware that the singer has turned their head from the audience position. Your configuration doesn't pick this up? The way that you place mics is one way. Why is that right and everyone else in the world wrong?
There is no discussion to be had then.
There is a difference between talking with and talking at people.
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sekar
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Post by sekar on May 19, 2017 16:12:38 GMT
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 19, 2017 16:53:01 GMT
I had a listen to them Sergey and found it very curious that the 5th concerto has a (classical?) piano playing the continuo part. Very unusual to hear that. I can access most of Amazon's stuff because I'm a 'Prime' Music member so it's handy to hear music before looking for a better copy. It's quite closely recorded as well. I recorded the Brandenburgs for radio in the late 70s and the guy that put the final recording together had done some kind of splice, or split, where he joined one version with another at one point and actually missed out one beat of the music!! It was even released as an lp as well by the recording company........  So we had bars in 4 and at the end of one phrase, where he cut the recording, there was a lone bar of 3. And it even went out like that. I'm not sure that anyone noticed. Just shows you what can go out, but in this case, it was someone a bit happy in the splicing department. The one that I love to play the one with a big oboe solo in the second movement. The first concerto. The harmonies underneath become really quite modern and almost dissonant. Try this one and see what you think. This is about 9 or 10 years ago on the Decca label. www.amazon.com/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Consortium-Musicum/dp/B002ED89FE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1495212545&sr=8-1&keywords=brandenburg+concertosThis version uses Baroque instruments so the pitch is lower; as Bach might have heard it ... www.amazon.com/Brandenburg-Concertos-Orchestra-Enlightenment-MacKintosh/dp/B000TENI38/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1495213021&sr=8-14&keywords=brandenburg+concertosThere are so many different outlooks on Bach. Whether to use a Baroque orchestra, whether to use a small chamber sized orchestra for more intimacy, or record them further away for a more 'overall' view. Whether to use modern instruments close or further afield and again, size of the orchestra. Let alone speed variations because in Bach's time, speed indications weren't fixed. No metronomes so you had to go by instinct really. I'm not certain that Bach would have liked the aggressiveness of modern instruments though. I used to do the Brandenburgs on a regular basis in London with a baroque group called the Albany Consort. The harpsichord player was a guy called Jonathan Salzedo who upped and moved to the USA and reformed the Consort out there in California. |
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