solderdude
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HD414
May 24, 2017 4:59:24 GMT
Post by solderdude on May 24, 2017 4:59:24 GMT
Yep... thanks.
Will 'convert' it to a more sensible plot. I skimmed Tyll's site and could not find it... But only looked in the 'open headphone' section and not in the 'earpad' section... Also didn't turn up when googling.
looks like the HD414 isn't much hifi. a terrible resonance, quite high self resonance, substantial bass roll-off starting from 100Hz already and no treble extension.
It may well have been 'the bomb' many, many,many years ago but it is clear development hasn't stopped in the 60's.
One thing is for sure... the filters won't help here.
Bass can't be improved and that terrible resonance at around 2.5kHz can't be removed without affecting the FR. Perhaps some DSP could be able to correct it.
Looks like the HD424 (its more expesive brother) isn't much better either. It does show less severe resonances and has a lot less distortion in the bass.
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Rabbit
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HD414
May 24, 2017 7:02:22 GMT
Post by Rabbit on May 24, 2017 7:02:22 GMT
Sennheiser updated the hd424 with a more plush looking pad type which was also quite average, but again, for those days of not measuring too accurately, it wasn't bad in comparison to many others at the time. The 414 was cheap and could be thrown around with no damage so they served a purpose.
I went to some horribly coloured JVC headphones which had round Grado like pads with a volume control on the outside of each cup. They were on ear and very uncomfortable, so they didn't stay too long.
In fact, headphones weren't taken at all seriously and the idea of a headphone amp was not generally bothered with, with the feed coming from an attenuated speaker out line. No regard for impedance either.
Maybe now, people might see why the dt150 became so popular in studios. It had bass!!
TBH, I can't see any reason for modern sound engineers to be using an hd414 for working with. It's totally open and as you say Frans, they are skewed in FR, but for those bad old days, there really wasn't that much choice. Comparatively it was good, but compared to modern headphones, it's nostalgia I suspect. The idea of manipulating one for monitoring in a modern studio is just a bit odd.
I would have thought a modern so called, 'bassy' headphone would respond better to eq since the drivers nowadays are better and the old 414's might be a bit stiff now!! In any case, not all modern headphones are bassy, so I don't know where that came from either.
Personally, I couldn't see the point really of trying to manipulate an hd414 except for curiosity.
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cj
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HD414
May 24, 2017 8:04:00 GMT
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Post by cj on May 24, 2017 8:04:00 GMT
What about the HD414SL? Lower impedance (600 as supposed to 2000) different frame and pads.
I had a set of these back in the 80s, given as a freebie with a Marantz CD75TB (very nice cdp in its day). Can't remember what happened to them but we're replaced by HD560 ovii.
They, 414sl, were also a popular buy back then. Definitely inherited the thin bass though.
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solderdude
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HD414
May 24, 2017 8:24:24 GMT
Post by solderdude on May 24, 2017 8:24:24 GMT
The 414SL were better looking for sure. It is said the same drivers were used but in a different enclosure and with different pads. Haven't found any plots of the 414SL.
Tyll's plots were from original 2000 Ohm versions. The later HD414 (and HD414SL) were indeed 600 Ohm Later on the anniversary version was released which had 50 Ohm drivers.
Chris, can you remember ever comparing the HD414 with the 414SL back in those days ?
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solderdude
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HD414
May 24, 2017 8:33:56 GMT
Post by solderdude on May 24, 2017 8:33:56 GMT
Maybe now, people might see why the dt150 became so popular in studios. It had bass!! TBH, I can't see any reason for modern sound engineers to be using an hd414 for working with. It's totally open and as you say Frans, they are skewed in FR, but for those bad old days, there really wasn't that much choice. Comparatively it was good, but compared to modern headphones, it's nostalgia I suspect. The idea of manipulating one for monitoring in a modern studio is just a bit odd. Personally, I couldn't see the point really of trying to manipulate an hd414 except for curiosity. Rostelle's measurements suggested that it was much darker sounding than the HD650, had massive (subbass) a substantial dip at 1kHz and a roll-off above 12kHz. I suspect he jammed the measuring mic right against the driver. That would surely show huge subbass which would 'short acoustically' itself through the yellow pads and open back. Probably when you would have pressed those puppies against your ears more bass would have been the result ? (just guessing here)
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Rabbit
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HD414
May 24, 2017 9:11:19 GMT
Post by Rabbit on May 24, 2017 9:11:19 GMT
From memory, I don't think that they had a great bass tbh. They were a nice headphone but that is compared to what was available. Funny that Chris mentioned the hd560 which is one I went to at one point as well. I think it had a name ... Ovation?
Tbh, Rostelle's FR graphs didn't seem right to me either but since I'm going by memory, I wasn't prepared to discuss it because it would have been pointless. My memory of the 2000 ohm version was that it was ok, but nothing brilliant. In any case, headphones weren't really taken very seriously then.
I'd love to hear a pair now though in hindsight!!
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solderdude
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HD414
May 24, 2017 9:56:59 GMT
Post by solderdude on May 24, 2017 9:56:59 GMT
I'd love to hear a pair now though in hindsight!! Yep same here.
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garyc
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HD414
May 24, 2017 12:11:04 GMT
Post by garyc on May 24, 2017 12:11:04 GMT
Sennheiser updated the hd424 with a more plush looking pad type which was also quite average, but again, for those days of not measuring too accurately, it wasn't bad in comparison to many others at the time. The 414 was cheap and could be thrown around with no damage so they served a purpose. I went to some horribly coloured JVC headphones which had round Grado like pads with a volume control on the outside of each cup. They were on ear and very uncomfortable, so they didn't stay too long. In fact, headphones weren't taken at all seriously and the idea of a headphone amp was not generally bothered with, with the feed coming from an attenuated speaker out line. No regard for impedance either. Maybe now, people might see why the dt150 became so popular in studios. It had bass!! TBH, I can't see any reason for modern sound engineers to be using an hd414 for working with. It's totally open and as you say Frans, they are skewed in FR, but for those bad old days, there really wasn't that much choice. Comparatively it was good, but compared to modern headphones, it's nostalgia I suspect. The idea of manipulating one for monitoring in a modern studio is just a bit odd. I would have thought a modern so called, 'bassy' headphone would respond better to eq since the drivers nowadays are better and the old 414's might be a bit stiff now!! In any case, not all modern headphones are bassy, so I don't know where that came from either. Personally, I couldn't see the point really of trying to manipulate an hd414 except for curiosity. You've just reminded me of some puke green headphones I bought in the late 70s, my first ever pair which had two volume sliders on the outside of the cups, not sure they were JVC but they did come from Laskys, Oxford. I replaced them with the HD414s when I started work, then moved to the HD420s a couple of years later, much more comfortable to wear than the 414s where you could feel the drivers on your ears as the pads aged. Yes, the 1/4" headphone jack on my PW Texan amp switched the speaker output (so the speakers muted with the headphones in) with a resistive step down for the headphones. Believe it was the same (without checking the schematic) on my A&R A60, but that also had non-switched speaker terminals at the back.
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solderdude
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HD414
May 24, 2017 14:16:35 GMT
Post by solderdude on May 24, 2017 14:16:35 GMT
It could need some help at around 2.8kHz (-5dB) in a quite narrow band, the rest I would leave alone and don't spend much money on it. Indeed most amplifiers and receivers back in the days just used the output signal of the power amp. Often attenuated with some resistors or just one resistor. Output resistances of these 6.3mm jacks could vary between 100 Ohm and 700 Ohm depending on make and model. Above the filter Linkwitz designed for it. It shows a broader peak at 2.8kHz which is lowered about 2.8dB A second smaller peak at 8kHz (lowered -2.4dB) and a 3rd one at 11.5kHz The 2.8 and 8kHz are right on the money. The one at 11kHz isn't there and would not do anything about it. Unfortunately the dips can't be improved upon without making lost of distortion.
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cj
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HD414
May 24, 2017 20:37:57 GMT
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Post by cj on May 24, 2017 20:37:57 GMT
@frans I've never heard a pair of standard SL414 so definitely can't answer that question.
@ian That's right, I abbreviated "Ovation" down to ov in my previous post. I had the mk2 hence writing ovii. I later had the HD580 which died a nasty death which lead to the HD600 that I still have, although the pads and headband cushion need replacing now.
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Rabbit
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HD414
May 24, 2017 21:07:32 GMT
Post by Rabbit on May 24, 2017 21:07:32 GMT
I loved the 580. Had two of them. First one had that awful connection problem at the cups. Caused me to move on to the hd600 as well, but I never liked the colour. Funny thing is that I never really appreciated the hd580 sound until the end when the 600 came out. I comparedthe 580 with others available and it seemed so natural by comparison. The hd414 didn't have the same naturalness in all honesty, but they were a nice, durable headphone. Trouble is, we were all driving them mostly from integrated amps so probably never got the best from any of them.
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Rabbit
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HD414
May 25, 2017 16:58:35 GMT
Post by Rabbit on May 25, 2017 16:58:35 GMT
One minor Senns that is a good alternative to the px100 is the hd239 imo. I tend to use that one quite a bit because it has memory foam and not those scratchy type pads on the px100. In any case, the II PX100 just isn't quite as nice as the original. The bass can be a bit thick so I tend to go for the extra comfort of the 239.
The only thing against it I guess is the build which is mostly plastic, but I've not had any problems with it since I got it two or three years ago.
I see now, there is also a new series of on ear types. Hd2.10, 2.20 and 2.30. Going to try out the middle one... hd2.20 next week. I'll compare it to px100 and hd239.
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solderdude
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HD414
May 27, 2017 14:08:38 GMT
Post by solderdude on May 27, 2017 14:08:38 GMT
It's very interesting to see the results are very similar to mine especially when you view the raw data pointing to the sharpest peak at 3khz, however I have to say, mine appear to carry on well into the 4khz range. really ?
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Rabbit
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HD414
May 27, 2017 15:03:20 GMT
Post by Rabbit on May 27, 2017 15:03:20 GMT
Sure the fun thing about following a hunch and simulating anything is, you usually get results never found before. Are you actually saying that everyone measures headphones incorrectly, except you and no one else knows about the hd414 frequency response? I had a pupil once who thought he'd invented a new chord. Really .... he actually believed it.
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HD414
May 27, 2017 16:04:25 GMT
Post by ronzo56 on May 27, 2017 16:04:25 GMT
I once had a pupil who thought he was a new chord. Oh wait. He actually thought he had invented, at least in his mind, a time machine. I hope he eventually does. Then he can come back in time and tell me how he did it.
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