oldson
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Post by oldson on Jun 24, 2017 21:21:07 GMT
SH1t, this is making me think twice about headphone useage!
do not want to add this to my ever growing list of ailments.
sorry to hear your suffering, Frans.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 24, 2017 21:31:13 GMT
Just turn down Simon. Try to listen at low volume. I've trained myself.
For me, the headphone frequency response helps. A lack of big peaks seems to keep noises at bay. Also, tbh, having a very low and robust bass end helps me to listen low. The bass is still there, whereas some headphones drop off very rapidly, which encourages louder listening in order to achieve a satisfying bass response.
Damage for me is probably live music. The last few years before I retired, I did a run of some extremely loud electronic stuff outdoors as well and that's when I noticed it with my hearing. Trouble is that the volume up at stage was in some cases, enormous so it's not surprising. I did wear earplugs and iem's though to minimise it, but the external volume could be so loud that I was 'feeling' the sound and blocking that out was not really possible.
Personally, I think tinnitus makes a good case for decent headphones with a smooth response.
My noises are quite mild though, thank goodness but they can vary.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 24, 2017 21:42:48 GMT
I don't think it is caused by headphones nor playing too much music nor too loud. The last few years my left ear's earwax seems to have become less soft over the years and my ears can't get the gunk out by themselves. Ears are selfcleaning and is what the hairs inside are for. Had to have my ears rinsed out a few times already in the past. Hearing was fine directly after. The last time it did not clear and hurt a little when rinsing. I guess the lady doing it wasn't as good as the others before.
As the left ear now hears less treble the brain 'recalibrates' and dials up the gain to compensate. I can clearly see the 12kHz tone in the right ear which is much higher in sensitivity then it was. Can't find my previous ear test but know it wasn't that sensitive there. As the test tone is 12kHz and isn't at 13kHz (where my ringing is) you would probably see an even higher sensitivity there. The brain screwed up the 'gain' to compensate for the other ear. When listening to music the highs are really unpleasant and shrill because of it.
I hope that once the left ear hears normal again (I just hope that is the problem) the gain will return to normal and the Tinnitus will go away again. When my hearing is shot (no idea why that would be as I was not exposed to any loud noises) I guess I will have to deal with the beep and learn to ignore it. During the day don't hear it. Only when it is really quiet.
I have been putting drops of sunflower oil in my ear. This seems to soften the earwax and should come out easily when rinsing. Monday I should know more.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 24, 2017 21:43:04 GMT
SH1t, this is making me think twice about headphone useage! do not want to add this to my ever growing list of ailments. sorry to hear your suffering, Frans. You are probably fine. As long as your ears don't ring at all after a long listening session. If you really want to be on the safe side get a reliable dB meter that can do C weighting and has a mic that sticks out from the end. Glue a few CD-R's together and put the mic into the spindle hole. Press it up to one of the ear pads and measure the loudness while playing some pink noise. Adjust your amp so you get a reading in the mid 70's at most. Then keep the amp at that setting when playing music. That way you'll know you are in the safe range. Personally I think all of us who use headphones should get regular hearing tests. I know I am over due for one. Just my 2 cents. USD of course.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 25, 2017 7:50:29 GMT
As the left ear now hears less treble the brain 'recalibrates' and dials up the gain to compensate. I can clearly see the 12kHz tone in the right ear which is much higher in sensitivity then it was. Can't find my previous ear test but know it wasn't that sensitive there. As the test tone is 12kHz and isn't at 13kHz (where my ringing is) you would probably see an even higher sensitivity there. The brain screwed up the 'gain' to compensate for the other ear. When listening to music the highs are really unpleasant and shrill because of it. I have been putting drops of sunflower oil in my ear. This seems to soften the earwax and should come out easily when rinsing. Monday I should know more. My Mum used to put sunflower oil in her ears. Also olive oil. She swore by it. It could well be the difference between the two ears, Frans. Great idea to test your own ears like that to spot any anomalies. I must try that with mine. In my case, jet engine-like volumes for extended periods has probably done mine in!! So stupid really to be playing so loud, but outdoor places need quite a lot. I have no idea why engineers feel that foldback has to be loud as well. Maybe to overcome external sound? Sometimes it was so awful, I'd feel sick from vibrations afterwards. Even ear plugs had a tough time keeping it out really. The sounds I really hated were the hits from drums. The attack is so strong that it almost makes you wince at close quarters. The bass drum used to physically hit my chest. Ridiculous really. So for me, there isn't that much I can do, but if you weren't subjected to lots of loud noise, then it may be as simple as a good flush out. Hopefully, that'll be it. Mine does vary enormously though from day to day. Some headphones make it worse for some reason. I think it's headphones with big treble peaks. (Grado does it to me) At times, I can go from perfectly quiet.... wear a headphone and listen and when I take them off, the noise is right there. Not with Senns on Kameleon though. Even quite loud, that's ok. Nor dt770 on it, which is why I use them quite a lot. Could be that ironing out spikes is beneficial to hearing.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 26, 2017 0:30:49 GMT
I have two Grado's from the distant past. Thought they were the bees knees back then. Then I got the K701's. Similar sound signature with a touch more bass. I can't listen to any of them anymore. They all have peaky treble issues and my tinnitus kicks up with even a 30 min listen. Luckily I found the HD650. I've had them a long time. Still one of my favorites and now made better with Fran's filter. Never gives me a problem.
I think the Grados and the AKG's sounded good to me because the gear I was using was low to mid-fi at that time, and the elevated treble fooled me into thinking they were resolving headphones. But I learned better as time went on. I have a close friend that started playing professionally at 16. A drummer. I never understood how he could play them on stage with all the speakers facing the audience cranked up and then the monitors facing the band. I sat on the side of the stage one time during a show and man were my ears ringing the rest of the night.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 26, 2017 7:15:10 GMT
Same for me with the ear noises Ron. Grado and AKG set the noises off. With foldback speakers, it was way worse when I first started. The speakers used to be behind us, firing into our backs. The physical feeling often made me queasy!! The worst I ever did was an open air festival at Reading in the U.K., where every year loads of bands gather and play on open fields. We had a 'special' set up for that and honestly, it was like standing next to a jet plan for two hours. I was staying in a place about five miles away in Tilehurst and could hear other bands from there!!! Nowadays, we can block a lot out with iem's and hear it played back at a better volume, although outside noises do get in, so the reality is that you do still listen too loud really. Biggest volume and basically on threshold of pain to me when I first heard them was The Who. Sickening volume levels. That was at Reading as well. Indoors though at the town hall I think it was. Daltrey's screaming actually hurt!!! Now, he's pretty deaf. He runs a trout farm up the road from me here. Have seen him around but mostly shouts ..... 'Pardon?' 'Eh?', 'What?'. I'm not that bad yet. 
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 26, 2017 8:10:30 GMT
Ah yes The Who. Saw them indoors at a relatively small venue, about 6000 capacity. Ended up against the back wall with tissue paper in my ears, and my ears still rang the entire next day. But Deep Purple beat even that. Indoors, much larger arena type venue. This time my mate and I brought proper ear plugs. A quarter of the way back on the floor, and they barely were able to keep some of the (especially the vocals on Highway Star) treble peaks from making your ears hurt. Probably the loudest concert I have ever attended. The sub-bass made my rib cage and lungs vibrate in harmonic sympathy.
Thank the gods we brought those ear plugs or I might be walking around like Mr. Daltrey.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2017 9:08:26 GMT
Just did a volume 'take' on a sound meter, (a weighted, so bass frequencies are largely ignored) and at a healthy loudish volume on speakers, I'm reading 75dBa at the top which is extremely easy to reach in a headphone and exceed without noticing. In room, it sounds pretty robust.
Lowish volume, (when Helena's home) I'm getting a reading of 62dBa. On headphones, that sounds quiet. In room, still fine.
Background level - 54dBa.
So headphones are probably listened to at much louder volumes without realising.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 29, 2017 15:01:04 GMT
Strange how we get loudness cues from speakers, and they seem louder at the same dB level as when using headphones. That's why I am trying to get this K-meter VST to work with Foobar. Seems to be working, but I am still experimenting.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2017 16:42:24 GMT
Had it been a C weighting, it would have read higher though.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 29, 2017 19:42:27 GMT
Yes. I am using C weighting slow response to calibrate my headphones to K-meter. So far only have done the HD650. Think I am keeping the volume in the upper 60's to mid 70's dB's. Max is 83 according to the K-meter, but it can peak to 87 for short crescendos etc.
Interesting how the meter really shows the DR of a song. Hardly moves on some and bounces up and down on others, especially some of my classical stuff. Or course.
Edit: just in case anybody wants to try this K-meter stuff, there are free downloads out there. Don't pay $$$ (£££ or €€€) for a fancy interface. The code is open source.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2017 20:05:18 GMT
Oh - you have a posh meter!!  I keep mine handy just to check occasionally if I think something is getting a bit louder. Generally though, I try to keep everything low and clear. I do find that lesser headphones don't work so well at lower volumes. Once Kameleoned though, they seem to relax and come through clear at extremely low volumes! One that is remarkably close sounding to the hd600 is the px100. That one is nice and smooth and I often use it to compliment the hd6xx if I want to move around after listening to the bigger ones. No Kameleon for that one but it is pretty good really.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 29, 2017 20:23:29 GMT
Some headphones are weird that way. I know at meets I have to turn some of them up to get them to hit their sweet spot. ( off topic, listening to The Last Resort off Hotel California with the SeNNater and 650's. Never heard the piano sound so MUCH like a piano. Really has the timbre of a piano in a real room. DVD-A disc. Really well mastered.) A lot of folks at meets listen at much higher levels than I do. When they sit down at my table the first thing most do is turn up the volume. Which you can't do on my SeNNater or the bass goes overboard. Frans made mine for low volume. Getting around that by using it as a pre into another amp. You can crank it and no bass issues. Just gets louder.  And no audible increase in distortion. IIRC the distortion on the SeNNater/Kameleon is low.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2017 20:50:34 GMT
Probably hearing harmonics clearer so the sound is more realistic. I find that as well. In fact, I was listening to some Beethoven piano sonatas this afternoon and not only was the piano spot on but room acoustics were just lovely.
Just charging up my new portable Kameleon now with its new batteries so moved the filters around!!
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