Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 16, 2017 15:06:05 GMT
Tyll has done some really interesting work in the past, concerning compensation graphs. In other words, trying to get graphs to look like they sound. Also trying to determine what 'flat' might be on a headphone. For a long time, 'flat' measurements needed a slight lift in the bass for me and now, according to Tyll's recent work, he's now decided the same along with a few other adjustments. My preference has always been for a stronger bass, which many Hi-Fi enthusiasts almost deride you for, but for me, it does seem more natural like that. Not loads more bass, but say, 3db lifted. Then for me, I'm starting to wonder where in the bass I like the lift. It's not around 80 - 100 hz because when I hear it, I instantly become aware of 'bloom' in mens' voices. So it's lower down for me. I find the hd650 very satisfying in the bass once driven through a Kameleon. The DT770 from a Kameleon slightly more satisfying. The Beyer has more quantity of bass than the Senn, so for me, a touch more, but very low down works better. It just seems more natural, yet so many rave about this or that headphone and when I try them, apart from a too hot top end, there seems to be a distinct lack of bass. The MSR7 is one, where it's got a strident top and basically not a lot down below. You don't really notice until you move to the Senn or Beyer though. Regarding amounts, it's probably due more to me being in live situations where room resonances often 'enhance' the bass perhaps? It's a sounded that I've definitely 'learned'. I guess headphone measurements are improving and it's thanks to people like Tyll that we are beginning to look at headphones a little more seriously. Maybe the first maker to hit a good tonal flat balance might make a lot of money and then everyone else might follow? Who knows?
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Post by ronzo56 on Sept 16, 2017 16:25:03 GMT
We can only hope. I like a touch more bass than most headphones provide. I just want it to be articulate bass. Not boomy or one note sounding. Many phones seem to have an issue with this.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 16, 2017 17:19:26 GMT
That kind of bass is headache inducing, Ron!!
Funny thing that for me, the DT770 has an almost onenote bass 'naked' but from the Kameleon, it seems better defined. Maybe because although it has more than the Senn, it is actually lowered from stock. Maybe the detail isn't as good, but the bass is rather fullsome!!
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Post by ronzo56 on Sept 16, 2017 19:54:28 GMT
I've have a loaner Monoprice M1060 I've been trying out. Not my cup of tea. A friend of mine gave it a listen while over, and discovered he likes a tilted up bass in headphones while listening to the M1060's. He had never tried any cans known for being bassy because he didn't think he would like them. Any suggestions on lower priced headphones with a good base foundation that don't need EQ or Kameleon?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 16, 2017 20:04:22 GMT
The Sony MDR 1a is lower priced. Mostly mid bass though. The big bass one is the VModa m100 but expensive. Creative Aurvana Live, or fatter sounding, Creative Aurvana Live II?
Portables are a hard area for most people I think!!
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Post by lobalwarming on Sept 17, 2017 3:23:24 GMT
Ron: For cheap: Superlux 669 - not just headphones, also useful for sinus clearing. Or Samson SR950. Same thing. Closed and Bassified!
Used set of Fidelio X1s. Scratchy pads tho, big wide image with 'hifi' treble.
Senn HD380 can go really low and deep while crushing your skull with clamping pressure. So a great combo for headbanger music.
Some consider the Brainwavz HM5 a decent bottom option too.
Or Grados and a good imagination.
But, I'm a hypocrite. Headphones are the most personal listening experience. I can't make anything near a definitive rec for anyone but me. And even that's a little dicey. All I can say is BUY THEM ALL - and listen to them all. Then sell off all the chaff and just keep the 650s. ;-)
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 17, 2017 7:03:11 GMT
Or Grados and a good imagination.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 17, 2017 7:49:49 GMT
While Tyll's plots are 'better' than they were before they still are quite 'off' from reality even with his new 'compensation'. I find it funny how he measures speakers and then dismisses what he found and wings his new compensation. When measuring something from a 30 degree angle with Pinna, which seriously alter the FR with sounds coming from the front, and then try to use THAT found correction to sounds coming from a 90 degree angle is not particularly insightful. I am sure he discussed this with the folks at Harman at that time. A pinna shows a totally different frequency response when sounds are coming from the side. Then there is the effect of acoustical mixing of left and right signals (unless only one speaker played a signal and only that particular mic was recorded) and room acoustics to be included. Of course... one can argue that one wants to apply 'correction' that mimics how a 'reference speaker in a reference echoic room at a specific listening position' would be the reference which to compare to would be leading. In which case the 'found' correction would have to be applied (including the left out bass hump !). Yet... that didn't yield a good correction. The sharp 'peak' and 'dips' around 10kHz also are not addressed. They don't seem to be there in reality when Tylls plots show them. Not on my (simple Pinna-less test rig) nor when one sweeps a tone and listens to it. A +5 or +10dB peak is quite audible. The lack of insight in this is a bit disturbing with that many years of experience. Curious to see what his active compensation will look like (I assume something very similar to Headrooms comparator) When looking at the progress Sam has made ( Rtings) in just a year, with a much better compensation curve, and guys like Sonarworks, that both use HATS, and recognize their limitations and make their own (much better) correction curves then I wonder what Tyll has learned over the last decade or so. The compensation Tyll uses now almost is the same one as I proposed here: This is Tyll's new correction for the HD600 (taken from Tyll's innerfidelity website) Note: I 'compensated' his HD650 and the plot Tyll corrected was the HD600. These 2, however, are more simlar than different. As can be seen the correction is still far from perfect. But .. I will be following Tylls adventures anyway. This all doesn't invalidate the vast library of measurements which can be used for comparing against themselves. They just don't have any relation with perceived FR above 1kHz... that's all.
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Post by lobalwarming on Sept 17, 2017 9:17:27 GMT
I think, in the interests of science, Tyll needs to go Van Gogh and lop off an ear lobe and test his curves again. Would have been better for the listening arts if Tyll had connected with you, Frans and B&K long ago when the ears were fresh and the research solid rather than a corporate conglomerate with dubious 'scientific' goals, but very clear marketing ones. On another curve, have you heard the new Toneboosters HP compensation plugin? www.toneboosters.com/tb_morphit_v1.htmlGoing to try it soon. Tonebooster's Jeroen Breebaart is a no nonsense DSP developer with a great range of high value plugins. Have used Isone for phone mixing successfully - although now, with the Solstice and some vintage 12SN7 tubes the soundfield has opened up and become more natural, more engaging and spacious. Can't express how much this little amp has increased my enjoyment of HP listening. Thanks again, Frans and Jeremy!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 17, 2017 9:27:32 GMT
Tone boosters Morphit is very similar to Sonarworks... but cheaper.
Disadvantage from both is that it needs computive power so you're stuck with devices having an operating system on it and supporting this. So the run of the mill MP3 player etc can't use these programs.
Great for phones, tablets and PC's of course.
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Post by lobalwarming on Sept 17, 2017 19:33:45 GMT
Yes, it's another software solution - as we know - software solutions create software glitches. ;-)
This is why starting today, I will be advocating a G1217 Tube multi-bit DAC with integrated Kameleon.
With an 'upgrade' to an IoT version with on-board SHARC DSP that connects to the internet every track to check for updates and snitch on you revealing at diyah your guilty-pleasure tracklist.
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fanda
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Post by fanda on Sept 23, 2017 13:46:13 GMT
While I have a lot of respect for Tyll (can only imagine how much time and energy was spent building that huge collection of measurements), this approach seems incorrect. I would expect innerfidelity's measurement rig (with its own head/ear) to be different from Harman's reference rig measured on the same head, and that difference has to be accounted for somewhere.
If he wanted to apply his own HRTF as a compensation curve, he should have taken a few of his reference headphones along and measured them on his head using the same rig at Harman, alongside the speaker measurements. This would have at least given him a set of baseline measurements that could be functionally translated to innerfidelity's measurements (by adjusting for the differences between the rigs' using the results from the reference headphones).
As such, what he has ended up with is a fairly arbitrary result - ignoring a lot of his own data and settled on a subjective curve.
EdIt: corrected some errors in my post, as misinterpreted a couple of points from the original article.
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