musikl
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Post by musikl on Jul 10, 2018 17:58:59 GMT
Thank you for clearing that up, Solderdude! I'll try to find a local craftshop and get some 1mm stiffened felt. And it's good to know that my expectations for a life-like soundstage, with real, almost tangible depth, instead of mainly width, is something that I shouldn't really expect in most ordinary headphones. I'm not willing to spend such large sums on headphones at this point in my life, and I'm also unwilling to spend extra on dedicated amps. The conclusion is that these will give me more or less similar results to the rest of the HD6 family, even more so after I will mod them. At that point I'll see if I feel the upgrade was worth-while or I'll sell them at a small loss if not. After lots of reading, am I right to conclude that there are no headphones in roughly the same budget (150-200e) that will produce much better results? And that spending twice that sum on headphones +/- amp won't give me a listening experience that's "twice" as good? I think the best case scenario is that I may get something of similar sound quality, but with a signature that I might enjoy slightly better. Maybe the HD650 had the advantage of being supported by plugins such as Sonarworks Reference or Toneboosters Morphit, whereas I don't know if the HD58x will be supported. lobalwarming, thank you for the suggestions, but, as I wrote above, I'm unwilling to invest in more expensive headphones or in separate amps. I just wanted to keep it simple and get a quality headphone for a sum that I was still willing to spend on headphones. Years later, if I'll find I want to take it up another notch (or several), I'll research this. As for the monitors, they're easily the best gear investment I've made. The sound is fantastic both for music listening, but especially for piano playing. And that's why I bought them, I play a digital piano (actually VSTs) and I wanted to get good results via speakers, for when I have people over and for my personal enjoyment. I'm pretty certain at this point that I would not get the same sound scape if I were to invest 500e in headphones + amps. And yes, you're right about the FR. I have gotten significantly used to them and I'm more happy about them meanwhile (nothing to do with burn-in as I left them playing for a couple of days before properly listening). The still won't output certain nuances I hear on the SR850 in the highs (which probably overdoes that area), but they are much better than the SR850 in other areas. And I also got used to the imaging and the brain is compensating bringing it closer to what I expect to hear, so yeah, there's also some adapting on my part going on.
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shiro
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Post by shiro on Jul 10, 2018 18:16:25 GMT
The pads are the same ones as on all Sennheisers and will get softer over time. Unfortunately, that would mean my ears would even more touch the pads. Don't understand why they sloped the pads this much, it's barely 35mm wide at the bottom whereas it would be 50mm without the slope. I admit, I am disappointed. I wasn't expecting these to be less comfortable than the other 500 series, which fit me fine.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 10, 2018 21:39:00 GMT
am I right to conclude that there are no headphones in roughly the same budget (150-200e) that will produce much better results? And that spending twice that sum on headphones +/- amp won't give me a listening experience that's "twice" as good? I think the best case scenario is that I may get something of similar sound quality, but with a signature that I might enjoy slightly better. Maybe the HD650 had the advantage of being supported by plugins such as Sonarworks Reference or Toneboosters Morphit, whereas I don't know if the HD58x will be supported. The HD650 correction from Sonarworks will give proper results. What is 2x better sounding I can not tell. For some going more expensive and other tonal balances may be 10 x 'better' to them. For others the same 'upgrade' will only be a marginal upgrade and not worth the money. There are other decent to good headphones around for E 150 but none of them will have the tonal accuracy/balance but may or may not be more 'pleasant' sounding. Impossible to tell. In any case.. Sennheiser quality is good and parts will be around for a very long time. The HD58X (with felt mod) is one of the very few headphones I have that I do not feel the need to EQ.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 10, 2018 21:41:47 GMT
The pads are the same ones as on all Sennheisers and will get softer over time. Unfortunately, that would mean my ears would even more touch the pads. Don't understand why they sloped the pads this much, it's barely 35mm wide at the bottom whereas it would be 50mm without the slope. I admit, I am disappointed. I wasn't expecting these to be less comfortable than the other 500 series, which fit me fine. Comfort on the HD5** series is 'better' as in more lightweight and better ergonomics but SQ of all of them (to me) is below the HD58X. I have no issues with fit and comfort but then again also do not have issues with Superlux headphones.
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shiro
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Post by shiro on Jul 11, 2018 6:18:45 GMT
Yep, my big flappers get in the way of many a pad I'm sure those with smaller ears will have a lot of fun with these.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 11, 2018 15:07:09 GMT
You could consider corrective surgery so you could enjoy more headphones ?
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musikl
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Post by musikl on Jul 11, 2018 17:42:12 GMT
First of all a question, then I will follow with some impressions: I can't seem to find any felt around here, but I realize the Superlux foam disc performs similarly well in your measurements, so I wanted to ask - when you say the foam disc, you mean the large disc that is found under the ear-pads? Because I have a pair left from an HD-681 Evo which I removed to make them brighter, as suggested in one of you reviews. Are they similar to the foam discs from the HD681? Would they work? If they are, then I see a further bass decrease, maybe another 1dB compared to the felt, and maybe a little increase the 4 kHz region, which I don't mind. Welcome to the forum. I was indeed talking about the foam disc with some cloth on one side. The same as the HD681 foam discs but not the 3mm thick felt disc of the HD681-EVO. I figured not many people have these discs. One could also use the foam discs from AKG. These are only 2 Euro a piece but shipping costs will make them more expensive. I had gotten the stiffened felt from Keith bluemonkeyflyer) many years ago and thought that it would still be available. Searched the web and could still find it. HERE for instance or THIS (can supply the world with that lot) or from WallmartStandard 1mm felt from the craftstore worked well also. When you find it takes away a bit too much you can 'pluck' the felt a bit and 'tune' to the desired tonal balance this way. Thanks for clearing that up! I removed the foam discs from my SR850. They appear to be a little thinner than the ones from the hd681 Evo (~2mm compared to ~3mm). I put the discs from the Evo on the SR850 and I like the sound, so I butchered the thinner discs from the SR850 and I'll try them. One last question about this: did you stick the side with the cloth to the tape, or the side with the foam/sponge? Do you think that will make a difference? Thank you! PS. I noticed something that I found weird when I removed the discs from the SR850. There was a triangular sticker with the text "Acoustic damper, please do not remove". What I found weird was that in the left can, the sticker was placed towards the front (at 3 o'clock), but in the right can it was placed towards the back (also at 3 o'clock). I would've expected the stickers to be mirrored - both towards the front (3 and 9 positions, when looking the driver straight on), or both towards the back (9 and 3). Do you think this affects the soundstage or the sound in some way? Would it be worth it to try to change them towards the back or towards the front, and if yes, what do you reckon would be better? Front or back?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 11, 2018 18:15:13 GMT
The sticker thing is normal. All Superluxes have this simply because they use the same baffle for L and R. Otherwise they would have to make 2 different baffles increasing costs and complicating assembly.
Stuck the foam side to the magnet. May make a difference as soundpressure will more easily escape through the sides of the sponge than pass through the cloth.
No harm in trying both ways though and see which bass response you like best.
It is simply a question of providing enough acoustical resistance. Too much will kill the bass, too little will leave a bit more lower mids/bass hump. Some like this... some like that.
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musikl
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Post by musikl on Jul 11, 2018 18:26:09 GMT
I thought that it may be do to the same baffle being used on both sides (which makes sense for production), but I figured it's maybe simply a sticker without outher changes to the baffle to accomodate it. Maybe I'll try removing it to see if I can stick it the other way around if the baffle is the same shape all around. But for now I'll focus on the 58x. Thanks for expanding on the logic behind it and for the quick response! I'll start with the cloth side in that case since I think I may enjoy the larger reduction of bass, I want more prominent mids/highs. If I find I don't like the result, I will flip it around, although I expect the difference to be very subtle.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 11, 2018 19:06:28 GMT
The baffle under the sticker is different than the rest of the baffle. There is a kind of 'port' to the side under the sticker. Some have removed it though and don't think it will make much of a difference.
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musikl
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Post by musikl on Jul 12, 2018 6:11:19 GMT
In conclusion I'll let the sr850 sticker just the way it is. Coming back to the hd58x, I did the mod with the cloth side towards the magnet. I also cut a perfect ring of strong double-sided tape, so there was no way air was escaping elsewhere. I saw others placed thin strips in a triangle so the seal wasn't perfect. First impressions were that I overdid it, but it was quite late last night for detailed evaluation and experimentation. Too bad I have no way of measuring it. But subjectively, when listening to music, although the voices are significantly clearer now, the sound more open, the low end seems a bit lacking. However, it's not in a bad way when listening and it doesn't strike me that hard. It's when I play piano that the difference is very obvious to me and it makes the sound just that little bit thin. And also, the clarity is still not very high, it's a more mid-centric sound in my impression. That's probably because I've been used with the elevated highs of the sr850 and these are flatter in the treble area. Although the focal alphas do give a significantly clearer piano sound, but the room isn't treated, so they may exagerate the treble as well.. Who knows?! I'll try flipping the foam today, after I listen to it some more to get used to the sound and have a clear comparison. Assuming I'll have the time.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 12, 2018 8:24:55 GMT
Clarity is in the 3-4kHz area. The HD58X (and HD660S) have a dip there. Most complaints in the past about the HD600 and HD650 in the past were about lack of bass extension and too much 'presence' in that part of the frequency range. Most headphones these days have the 'clarity' dip in different severeties. In the AKG K92 this was the worst I have ever measured and was over 20dB !
In the HD800 you will also see a dip in that part of the FR in my measurements but not with measurements made using a Pinna. When the drivers are angled substantially that part of the FR range is 'boosted' by the Pinna and thus it has proper clarity/presence. For headphones where the drivers are not angled measurements between Pinna and non Pinna measurement rigs are closely the same. The HD6xx range and HD58X are not angled so the dip is really there and heard as a lack of clarity.
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musikl
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Post by musikl on Jul 12, 2018 19:42:55 GMT
I suppose I meant air, or something of the sort. English isn't my native language, and the audiophile vocabulary poses even more challenges, since I'm rather new to it all. I was just looking for a great sounding can for playing piano mainly, and only secondary for music listening. And I'm sure the SR850 would be considered sharp / sibilant by some. I suppose even I find there's a little too much in the highs when listening to music sometimes, but for the piano it makes for a sound that's very real, alive, airy, not muffled and lacking sparkle, like it was with the HD681 Evo for instance. Now, reporting back about the HD58x - indeed, I did overdo it with the cloth side of the foam disc towards the driver. I listened to more music today and played piano and the sound was a little lacking in bass and in body (for the piano). I'm not sure how much of a bass decrease I achieved (if it brought it to the HD600 level or even lower). Even so, I was getting used to it somewhat. After some testing, I tried flipping the foam cut-outs with the foam towards the driver and the difference was a lot bigger than I expected. In this variant, I found the low end and overall sound to be just right. The bass wasn't overpowering the rest of the sound and it wasn't making the piano sound dark or missing that clarity that I like (never liked muffled pianos, nor the very sharp and thin sounding ones), and it definitely wasn't missing either (like it did a little with the cloth towards the magnet, making the sound just a little thin). For the music it was also a great balance between everything. One thing I found funny is that the notes around C7 were sounding a little recessed, and when I checked what are the frequencies of those notes I realized that they correspond perfectly to the dip in the 2-3 kHz region Last interesting observation: I wear glasses (thin frame), but the difference w/ or w/o glasses is far more subtle than the difference between the two sides of the foam cut-outs that I stuck on the driver. I mean it's almost indistinguishable, whereas which side the foam was stuck makes a big difference. It's my assumption that this is because the glasses, being on my head, press a little into the skin and that helps maintain a decent seal, whereas I assume the measuring rig is a rigid cast? In which case there's no possibility of the frames to be squeezed between to soft surfaces and the seal isn't as good - food for thought This being said, I believe this exploration of mine is close to its end and hopefully I'll be happy with these for a long time. My only curiosity is how would the HD650 have sounded on my interface and how they would have compared. If the differences were very subtle or if the listening (and playing piano) experience would've been significantly more pleasant... And they had the added bonus of compatibility with Reference (although I may try to use the HD660s profile with the HD58x, just out of curiosity). That's about it! Thank you for all your help and guidance! It has proven invaluable!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 12, 2018 22:05:05 GMT
The HD58X is 'tighter' in the bass and has more energy at 2-4kHz so is a bit 'flatter' in the treble.
I use mine with the electronic filter in line. This equalizes the small treble peak making the treble a bit 'softer' more akin the HD650.
The HD650 is a bit 'softer' as in 'more romantic' sounding as opposed to the 'tighter' and 'fresher' sound of the HD58X. I prefer the (modified and filtered) HD58X over the HD650. The HD650 on Kameleon has even better bass extension and is tonally completely balanced and has more 'air' but costs 4-5x more (HD650 + Kameleon)
That does not reach HD800 territory though.
The HD58X (with mods) is a great entry in 'hifi sound' and when upgraditis has little effect on you the HD58X and a decent portable player could be end game for budgetted people.
Yes, when glasses have thin arms and are flush (or even pressing into) the skin than there won't be loss of seal/bass.
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musikl
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Post by musikl on Jul 13, 2018 6:45:21 GMT
It's good to hear this comparison. Maybe this will be my endgame. Hopefully I am quite susceptible to upgraditis and have a fit every now and then, but this was the first time it went into headphone territory. Usually it's affecting other regions. Hopefully it's the last time as well and I have been immunized, at least for many years, because otherwise things can 'spiral upwards' really fast, really high, when it comes to audiophile stuff.
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