solderdude
Administrator
measureutternutter
Posts: 4,886
|
Post by solderdude on Jun 5, 2013 16:40:33 GMT
The biggest reason why a reproduction can never be the same as the life performance is very simple.
Even with a 2 mic solution the DIRECTION in which the soundwaves hit the microphone is removed and can never be reconstructed. An instrument has a certain pattern in which it emits sound and in live situations this spread greatly determines how it sounds as reflections around it help. Once soundwaves hit the mic they are converted to an electrical waveform similar to the sound pressure at a very small point without registering the spatial info. a 2 mic or dummy head recording can pick up some of the spatial cues on 1 point only but only does this by phase and FR related amplitude differences between L and R mic.
On reproduction ALL recorded sound waves are projected forward and in a certain way sidewards in ALL directions in a similar way while during the recording it was considerably different. Add to that the acoustics differ and those from the listening room are added.
Placement of mics (close or far) and pointing in which direction and under what circumstances is an art form and only a few master that art. a lot of studios 'mess around' with it without really understanding it. Bad recordings are the result.
|
|
Rabbit
Administrator
Posts: 7,091
|
Post by Rabbit on Jun 5, 2013 18:39:27 GMT
It would be rather nice if recordings could be issued as 'dummy head' recordings. They are terrific if done well, but unfortunately treated as a joke to demonstrate tricks like rattling matches behind and above your head or having a haircut.
Binaural recordings work really well for me but unfortunately not taken seriously by recording studios because of expense I guess.
A pity, because so many kids listen on headphones nowadays.
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jun 5, 2013 18:40:43 GMT
Placement of mics (close or far) and pointing in which direction and under what circumstances is an art form and only a few master that art. a lot of studios 'mess around' with it without really understanding it. Bad recordings are the result. The good recordings seem to contain a nice mix of relatively close miking, with mics placed in the hall to pick up hall acoustics as well, but it is indeed an art to judiciously create the right mixture of stage sound with hall acoustics, and if I can use a cooking analogy, a fine gourmet sauce is one that the taster would be hard put to separately distinguish the various ingredients, but enjoy the blend of favors! Even though a recording is an art form separate from live performance, still the best ones seem to be those that closely resemble live sound with the spatial impression being a valuable ingredient.
|
|
solderdude
Administrator
measureutternutter
Posts: 4,886
|
Post by solderdude on Jun 5, 2013 18:51:40 GMT
It would be rather nice if recordings could be issued as 'dummy head' recordings. They are terrific if done well, but unfortunately treated as a joke to demonstrate tricks like rattling matches behind and above your head or having a haircut. Binaural recordings work really well for me but unfortunately not taken seriously by recording studios because of expense I guess. A pity, because so many kids listen on headphones nowadays. For me binaural recordings have the disadvantage that they. A: do not create an 'out of head' experience for me personally (probably a brain thing cause others report it very often) I can hear it is recorded from a distance and can detect the 'ambience' it all is still inside my head. B: the S/N ratio in general is not among the best of recordings. I hate hiss in recordings. Also hate noise gates. There do exist some very nice ones though and funny ones (Barber shop e.t.c.) I don't listen to Classic music very much but am 'tasting' some of Rabbit's suggestion to 'start' in classic (the Enid for instance)
|
|
Rabbit
Administrator
Posts: 7,091
|
Post by Rabbit on Jun 5, 2013 19:45:52 GMT
I've heard that about binaural before, Frans. For me, it opens up a bit, but I'm not certain that my brain is translating or whether it is working like a pair of ears. My guess is that it IS inside my head and I'm translating, since after a while, the effect seems to lessen, I think. I probably get tired of translating because I have the attention span of a sparrow.
Glad you like the Enid. The recent one is perhaps a little better since Robert has less influence although he is still there. If you knew Enid you'd know what I mean. They have been around for 30 or more years too.
One thing about hi fi is that so many focus on gear (me too) and forget the music and for me, the gear is a route into all kinds of music that I'd never otherwise hear. In fact, I spend a lot of time listening to mostly new stuff to me rather than revisiting old. Then I move on.
My weakest area is Jazz. I really have to be in the mood for that stuff.
It's also brilliant for acoustics and recording. It contains a full rage of frequencies and being acoustic, much more interesting to try to capture than Rock with its common usage of DI and processing and in some cases orchestral which starts to get a bit large imo for headphones.
Jazz seems to be a very good 'hi fi' medium both for pleasure and testing gear for those tiny spacial clues that I'm actually quite bad at picking up in a headphone.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 12:20:40 GMT
A: do not create an 'out of head' experience for me personally (probably a brain thing cause others report it very often) I can hear it is recorded from a distance and can detect the 'ambience' it all is still inside my head. I agreed and that's why quite many things still cannot be fully be explained by science although biaural is supposed to see things from the ear thingy and should theoretically be the way to listen to things if we want the more Live experience. It's still inside the head kind of thing but have you try IEM? That seems to improve on things quite markedly. Funny thing is I used to only like HP but after trying out the biaural, I'm a convert to IEM. They seems to sound more spacious like Live. Well, that's only me. YMMV as usual. I don't listen to Classic music very much but am 'tasting' some of Rabbit's suggestion to 'start' in classic (the Enid for instance. Heh, heh, welcome to the Pleasuredome. We must get some classical afficiandos to start a recommendation thread here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 12:32:33 GMT
Placement of mics (close or far) and pointing in which direction and under what circumstances is an art form and only a few master that art. a lot of studios 'mess around' with it without really understanding it. Bad recordings are the result. The good recordings seem to contain a nice mix of relatively close miking, with mics placed in the hall to pick up hall acoustics as well, but it is indeed an art to judiciously create the right mixture of stage sound with hall acoustics, and if I can use a cooking analogy, a fine gourmet sauce is one that the taster would be hard put to separately distinguish the various ingredients, but enjoy the blend of favors! Even though a recording is an art form separate from live performance, still the best ones seem to be those that closely resemble live sound with the spatial impression being a valuable ingredient. Yup, even Damian indirectly acknowledged when he wrote he couldn't let me know more as it's proprietary. You are reading it, exclusively for his use and that's why his recording sound wonderful sepearate from the rest.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 12:43:03 GMT
The biggest reason why a reproduction can never be the same as the life performance is very simple. Even with a 2 mic solution the DIRECTION in which the soundwaves hit the microphone is removed and can never be reconstructed. An instrument has a certain pattern in which it emits sound and in live situations this spread greatly determines how it sounds as reflections around it help. Once soundwaves hit the mic they are converted to an electrical waveform similar to the sound pressure at a very small point without registering the spatial info. a 2 mic or dummy head recording can pick up some of the spatial cues on 1 point only but only does this by phase and FR related amplitude differences between L and R mic. On reproduction ALL recorded sound waves are projected forward and in a certain way sidewards in ALL directions in a similar way while during the recording it was considerably different. Add to that the acoustics differ and those from the listening room are added. Placement of mics (close or far) and pointing in which direction and under what circumstances is an art form and only a few master that art. a lot of studios 'mess around' with it without really understanding it. Bad recordings are the result. It can also be a limitation of current SOTA mics. It may sound crazy. Perhaps, we shouldn't be using current "pointing" mic but "box mic" where all the performers perform inside the "box mic". In that case, all the spatial cues eminating in all directions , will be fully captured and there is much lesser loss too thru diffusion to outside. Maximum Efficiency, Maximum Fidelity , Maximum towards Live. For sure, it will never be like Live until technologies and practices break the next and next and infinity barriers like PC chips.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 12:52:27 GMT
I have an indolent type of leukemia - CLL (Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia) that usually is not fatal, and of all the leukemias this one is the best to have. But, periodically I have to be subjected to the 'joys' of chemotherapy, and there where lies the little devil, for the cure, with its side-effects, has recently proven to be worse than the disease! Glad is nothing of fatality. Btw, which part of the body is affecting you? The head? If is, boy, all the chemotherapy will make you a Kojak. Sorry, if I have made any offending reference there. I will retract and edit if offend. Just let me know as I'm a very free speaking and writing person in a nice way.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2013 13:29:12 GMT
This of course is not within the scope of this thread, which is about how well the O2 performs, but I think I may be forgiven if I overstep a bit and talk about it as seen from my perspective as a performing musician. I understand but this was written in an O2 thread but now separated from the O2 by our alert Frans under Acoustics. Thanks Frans. It's always funny how a thread will start as such and such and ended up branching to other interesting topics (provided all know how to behave ) outside the scope of the original. I know it's a bad practice but that always happen in all forums and people don't really take offence to it when civilise. As the civilised English men always say, Ladies and Gentlemen .......... Ian will bear me out when I say that good performing musicians are well aware of the 6th sense, for without it, the art of give and take in ensemble playing, especially chamber music and accompanied solo performance, is absent! As a performer, I value this immensely, and it never ceases to amaze me what miracles it helps create on stage! I have had experiences of simply sitting down with some musicians that I had just met for the first time, going through some rather difficult, ensemble-wise challenging music, and without a single rehearsal, achieve unbelievable music making, with perfect ensemble, thanks to that elusive, but very real 6th sense! That applies to all as well at the top level. Like in a football team, it's the 6th sense that will bring glory to the team and nation. We can have the best individualistic players in the world in a team but still lose out to team players of the highest 6th sense as they will know when to pass the ball without even looking thru that 6th sense or telepathy. Jive in exactly as what you had written without knowing the musicians or played with them before. To enjoy any good concert, we must immerse ourselves into the environment of the event. Yeah, 6th sense or event Gaia come into play. I don't exactly know which sense you refer to as the 7th sense, but for me it exists perhaps in a different way. I dare call it Zen. Zen can not be explained in words. It has to be experienced! As a performer, while I have tried to achieve that state during a performance, many times it eluded me, especially when playing with some less than enlightened players, or through my own human shortcomings, which would bring me back to basics, such as intonation, rhythm, etc. But,.....when Zen is achieved during a performance, at the moment it does, I am unaware of it. It makes all those years of practicing and studying worthwhile! I would only realize in retrospect that it had occurred - after done playing. These have happened to me only a few times years ago, usually at solo recitals, accompanied by a good keyboard player. Rarely, maybe once or twice, in an orchestra conducted by a great conductor. After it would be all over, I would be unable to remember holding a flute in my hands, the presence of the accompanist, or even the audience, or their reaction during my playing! Those experiences were too few and far in between, but I know that they were amazing performances! It was as if someone else was playing my flute - probably true, and I can't claim even an ounce of credit for themI This is what 7th sense is in my book!
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jun 6, 2013 14:46:03 GMT
Ian will bear me out when I say that good performing musicians are well aware of the 6th sense, for without it, the art of give and take in ensemble playing, especially chamber music and accompanied solo performance, is absent! As a performer, I value this immensely, and it never ceases to amaze me what miracles it helps create on stage! I have had experiences of simply sitting down with some musicians that I had just met for the first time, going through some rather difficult, ensemble-wise challenging music, and without a single rehearsal, achieve unbelievable music making, with perfect ensemble, thanks to that elusive, but very real 6th sense! That applies to all as well at the top level. Like in a football team, it's the 6th sense that will bring glory to the team and nation. We can have the best individualistic players in the world in a team but still lose out to team players of the highest 6th sense as they will know when to pass the ball without even looking thru that 6th sense or telepathy. Jive in exactly as what you had written without knowing the musicians or played with them before. To enjoy any good concert, we must immerse ourselves into the environment of the event. Yeah, 6th sense or event Gaia come into play. Wow, Chong! While I was putting down my ideas re 6th sense on my iPad for posting here, I was wondering, and remembering Ian's caution about being perceived as a looney, but you indeed understood, and obviously are on that same wavelength, not acoustical, but measurable with different tools... I don't exactly know which sense you refer to as the 7th sense, but for me it exists perhaps in a different way. I dare call it Zen. Zen can not be explained in words. It has to be experienced! As a performer, while I have tried to achieve that state during a performance, many times it eluded me, especially when playing with some less than enlightened players, or through my own human shortcomings, which would bring me back to basics, such as intonation, rhythm, etc. But,.....when Zen is achieved during a performance, at the moment it does, I am unaware of it. It makes all those years of practicing and studying worthwhile! I would only realize in retrospect that it had occurred - after done playing. These have happened to me only a few times years ago, usually at solo recitals, accompanied by a good keyboard player. Rarely, maybe once or twice, in an orchestra conducted by a great conductor. After it would be all over, I would be unable to remember holding a flute in my hands, the presence of the accompanist, or even the audience, or their reaction during my playing! Those experiences were too few and far in between, but I know that they were amazing performances! It was as if someone else was playing my flute - probably true, and I can't claim even an ounce of credit for themI This is what 7th sense is in my book! Looking at what I said above, I am now wondering how it can be tied to the theme "Acoustics". Perhaps it can be done through "guilt by by association"..... Acoustics is an art, microphone placement is an art, and so is performance, which is the 'substance' that goes through our LoTech acoustics as well as our HiTech SS and Tube gear. Zen, impossible to put in words, while extant in many skills, is closely associated with the arts, as suggested in well known books such as "Zen in the Art of Archery" by philosopher Eugen Herigel; "The Inner Game of Tennis", by tennis champ Timothy Gallwey, and others. There is nothing like an inspired performance to outshine the brilliance of HiTech gear, and possibly enhance it as well!
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jun 6, 2013 15:16:10 GMT
Glad is nothing of fatality. Btw, which part of the body is affecting you? The head? If is, boy, all the chemotherapy will make you a Kojak. CLL does not attack any particular part of the body, for it is a blood disease. The type of chemo that I had does not peel the patient. I am naturally bald (God made a few beautiful heads, and the rest he covered with hair) To look like Kojak, I would have to shave off what is left of my hair. And, I don't like lollipops that much. No offense taken, Chong! Cheers! Israel
|
|
Crispy
very active
Madrigal music is playing - Voices can faintly be heard, "Please leave this patient undisturbed."
Posts: 779
|
Post by Crispy on Jun 6, 2013 19:23:34 GMT
I have an indolent type of leukemia - CLL (Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia) that usually is not fatal, and of all the leukemias this one is the best to have. But, periodically I have to be subjected to the 'joys' of chemotherapy, and there where lies the little devil, for the cure, with its side-effects, has recently proven to be worse than the disease! Hi Israel, I'm sorry you have Leukemia but it is nice to see you putting on a brave face and getting on with your life. Chemotherapy like you said is worse than the disease itself, I know from seeing my Mother get treated with it - bloody awful. Great to see you posting again and I always find what you have to say interesting even if sometimes it goes straight over my head Regards Chris
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jun 6, 2013 20:39:02 GMT
Hi Israel, I'm sorry you have Leukemia but it is nice to see you putting on a brave face and getting on with your life. Chemotherapy like you said is worse than the disease itself, I know from seeing my Mother get treated with it - bloody awful. Great to see you posting again and I always find what you have to say interesting even if sometimes it goes straight over my head Regards Chris Thank you for your kind words, Chris! I have always been a fighter, and have survived many close shaves. Some of my friends call me "Cat". I jokingly reply with informing them that I have already used up 7 of my lives, and have 2 more left. Cheers! Israel
|
|