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Post by tallulah on Oct 3, 2020 10:15:40 GMT
I own the Beyerdynamic DT 880, the Philips Fidelio X2HR and the Sennheiser HD 600. I've noticed that the treble response on both the Beyerdynamics and the Philips feels "grainy" and low detailed to my ears, while the Sennheisers feel very smooth and detailed. At first I thought it was just because it was louder on the other headphones, but using equalization I confirmed it's not a loudness thing, it's just perceived different. I love my HD 600s since I'm very sensitive to treble quality, and these are the only headphones I own which have such a clean treble. I can even make it louder with equalization and it keeps that smoothness and detail.
I was wondering, what causes that difference in perceived treble texture? Is it caused by an uneven response? Or maybe it's not related to frequency response? Is everyone having the same perception of "treble texture" for these headphones? Are there any other headphones with the same level of smoothness and detail as the HD 600s?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 3, 2020 20:08:20 GMT
Often it is caused by uneven response or high and narrow peaks or dips.
Sometimes it may be 2nd harmonics from frequencies half that of the treble range.
Sometimes it isn't easy to see in FR either.
HD600 and HD650 are indeed very smooth. The DT880 with some treble filtering also is quite smooth.
The trouble with fixing this using EQ generated by HATS is that this sometimes makes it worse as one is correcting measurement errors of such test rigs and thereby creatin peaks or dips that aren't really there.
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Post by tallulah on Oct 10, 2020 13:16:01 GMT
In this case (HD 600 vs X2HR) it's probably a frequency response thing. In your graphs it may not look that obvious, but in rtings graphs there's a big difference between both headphones in the 5 kHz to 9 kHz range. The HD 600 response is very flat and smooth there, but the X2HR has two narrow peaks and a big dip. I'll check that region closely before buying headphones. EDIT: I also checked the DT 880. It's interesting there are also two peaks. Maybe that's why I find the treble to be grainy in both headphones (though the X2HR feels much less piercing).
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 10, 2020 14:01:17 GMT
The problem is that when you look at graphs made with another HATS everything above 5kHz is vastly different.
The reason is that the HATS are not really intended for headphone measurements but used for this.
They have been calibrated and made for speaker and sound measurements either with sounds from the front and all around.
As the artificial pinna and ear canal differ from yours, mine or someone else's and also differ from HATS to HATS you will see substantial differences.
These differences are caused by the measurement system and aren't compensated for this.
For this reason I measue without pinna and ear canal (which has other disadvantages) but at least works pretty well above 6kHz where most of the drivers have some issues.
These issues can be masked or appear to be there (but aren't in reality) on certain measurement systems.
Measuring headphones isn't an exact science even though expensive HATS manufacturers would like you to believe they are.
Their HATS are all very suited to measure sounds in a room and speakers though. They all measure more similarly there.
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bill
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Post by bill on Aug 20, 2022 14:23:06 GMT
I own the Beyerdynamic DT 880, the Philips Fidelio X2HR and the Sennheiser HD 600. I've noticed that the treble response on both the Beyerdynamics and the Philips feels "grainy" and low detailed to my ears, while the Sennheisers feel very smooth and detailed. At first I thought it was just because it was louder on the other headphones, but using equalization I confirmed it's not a loudness thing, it's just perceived different. I love my HD 600s since I'm very sensitive to treble quality, and these are the only headphones I own which have such a clean treble. I can even make it louder with equalization and it keeps that smoothness and detail.
I was wondering, what causes that difference in perceived treble texture? Is it caused by an uneven response? Or maybe it's not related to frequency response? Is everyone having the same perception of "treble texture" for these headphones? Are there any other headphones with the same level of smoothness and detail as the HD 600s?
I am also extremely sensitive to treble and do agree about HD600. Hd650 also passes the test. I have tried several more headphones in search of this kind of headphones but I'm beginning to give up hope. Price does not seem to be an indicator of treble comfort either so it's not like I can pay more to get better treble, no - according to various reviews I came across, there are many expensive headphones that can get fatiguing easily. That said some headphones respond well to EQ and previously harsh headphones can be tamed. I found HD560s to be the case. Without EQ, I cannot listen for more than a few minutes. With EQ in 4-6khz range, it is transformed into smooth headphones. This must mean that the treble was elevated but smooth to begin with such that EQ could be effective. On the other hand, some headphones just won't respond well to EQ. In my own experience I found HD58X and ATH-R70X to be the case - these are grainy headphones with highly uneven frequency response (= scratchy treble) where EQ was not effective. This does not show up in graph most of the time due to smoothing applied to the graph. That said, many people perfectly fine with these headphones while a guy like me is bothered by grains more often than others. Also I find that Planar magnetic headphones are eerily deceptive when it comes to treble - actualy this may not just be about treble but could be applied to the whole frequency response. (Not that I tried many planars, but I had owned a couple). At first planars come across as smooth due to their reduced macro dynamics which planars are generally known for, but something about their timbre is fatiguing over long run. It is as if some extra thick air fills the background when music is being played. If I may liken this to air, DD headphones are like fresh air with no scent while planar headphones are like air filled with Glade air freshener. As relaxing, welcoming it may be at first, I would not want to live with it for a prolonged period. Sorry for the bad analogy. Again, most people won't agree with me but for sensitive people they could be bothered by something so minute and subtle as this. |
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Aug 21, 2022 9:36:51 GMT
I have a similar experience with some planar headphones, but not all.
Some of them are 'grainy' when comparing them directly to other headphones.
The Susvara sounded grain free (and should at that price) but the Edition XX for instance is grainy.
The >2020 HE400SE/400i sit somewhere in between. A modified and EQ'ed T50RP also had smooth treble.
The problem with measuring using a HATS is that some of this grainy-ness is happening above 8kHz which is inaccurately shown or even not shown at all.
In such case the relation between smooth treble and measured (not actual) response may not seem to be there.
Indeed not everyone is bothered by 'grain' and some are not bothered by (narrow) peaks in the 5-15kHz range either where others cannot stand peaks in that range.
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Post by fritzs_ha on Jul 1, 2023 11:53:41 GMT
How do you rate
AKG K712
AKG K812
Austrian Audio Hi X65
in each case - grainy or smooth?
Or Neumann NDH 20 (closed) & NDH 30 (open)?
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