Javier
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Post by Javier on Feb 17, 2014 10:48:58 GMT
My daughters love music and don't give a rat's about formats, players or HPs. They listen mostly to Youtube music videos or spotify on their tablet, smartphone or laptop using either their crappy integrated speakers or the provided IEMs and enjoy it probably more than anyone in here does onjoy a much, much better system. I've played them a few times some of their music on my steup to check whether they appreciated the extra SQ but the truth is they don't, they are genuinely interested only in the music itself and the sound part of the equation is utterly irrelevant to them. They'd be perfectly happy with a 10€ pocket FM transistor radio if there was a station that broadcasted the stuff they like. IMO they are the true music lovers type, the rest of us are, to varying degrees, interested in something else and not just music. Some will care for a part of their audio system's SQ be it speakers/HPs, amps or DACs, some for other parts and some for the whole of it. Some will care more for the system than music itself, some will care just a little a more and the rest will fall in between both extremes. IMO this is the real reason why we come to these kind of forums where music talk is a very small portion of the content and it is audio related discussions what really makes the bulk of them. For car or smartphone playing I use mostly MP3 (192-320Kbps)due to limited storage, system specs and high background noise but at home I prefer lossless formats if only for peace of mind.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Feb 17, 2014 11:59:51 GMT
Also Javier, as older people, we tend to enjoy 'ownership' of our music more than younger people. They see the 'cloud' as a useful thing to store their music files whereas we are more concerned about keeping it in as high res as possible just in case ....
I guess younger people are more happy to throw things away and move on, but we reside in the pst and like to hold our musical memories in as much technicolour as possible.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Feb 17, 2014 12:02:18 GMT
Despite my failure to get even a basic award from the test I stand by my earlier statements that I prefer Hi-Res music. I am convinced that we 'hear' things sub-consciously that somehow adds to the pleasure we get from the music. Everyone's hearing is different in many ways, form of ear lobes, shape of ear canal, the 3 small bones in the ear, the ear drum itself, let alone what happens beyond that. Even the two ears of the same person are different and will feed different 'information' to the brain between them. We know very little, if anything, about how the brain transmits (if that is the correct word) sounds to our consciousness, and the brains are so complex I cannot believe that they are all 'wired' or respond identically. I doubt if you would ever get any two people, even those with so called 'Golden Ears', to respond identically to the same piece of music when listening together - I have no doubt that they may well agree on the major aspects but on the exact point where roll off occurs or where distortion sets in or the highest or lowest note that each can hear I doubt there will be universal agreement. I have no doubt that recording engineers genuinely try to place their best interpretation of the music into the media they offer but the public response to their recordings is rarely uniform, some are largely considered to be bad offerings but the guy(s) who laid it down genuinely thought they had done a good job. The beauty is in the ear of the listener to paraphrase. ATM any such perceptions cannot be measured so the 'measurements tell you all you need to know' brigade are unable or unwilling to contemplate that what some people claim to 'hear' can possibly exist and therefore they must be self deluding - they may well be right but I believe that the jury is still out on that one. Just my opinion . I intend to try the test again using my 'filtered' K550 cans sometime and will report back on whether I progress any further than the 'Yes your ears do seem to be working' basic level . Dave.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Feb 17, 2014 13:35:24 GMT
No two ears are the same, not even ones left and right !
This, together with experience how the brain works is often said to be 'evidence' that some can hear better than others. In fact some DO hear better than others and most of this is because of training (its what the mentioned test is for, to learn to recognise artefacts). Someone that knows pianos or violin's ins and outs may very well be able to distinguish types and brands where others can't, but they may very well fail to hear differences in another discipline.
The differences between ear shapes/constructions etc. is completely IRRELEVANT in this discussion though. One may ask why ... The answer is very simple. Our brains work by comparison of 'known references' which we have stored (experience, learning). So our brains compare (recognition of instruments) with known references we heard before with those same constructed ears, not to absolute references of those of others. We hear with our own ears so we can only compare sounds other sounds (and how well we remember those which isn't that good). For this reason the thesis that every human hears the same acoustic sound(s) different is bogus as each person interprets the soundwaves that reach their ears in their own way and not relevant to other peoples ears.
Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I for one make up my own by using the least 'subjective' possible methods over 'pure subjective' ones but that is a choice that ultimately defines ones 'audio religion'.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Feb 19, 2014 18:59:32 GMT
I use my ears in a slightly weird way actually, Frans. I have a curse called 'perfect pitch'. What this means is that I can hear or sing a note before anyone plays it. I'm not quite sure how I do it, but one thing that really helps is to imagine the piano playing the note I want to pitch. I find that quicker.
So it's something to do with 'timbre' recognition I think. If I 'imagine' a piano (or oboe) D, then I get it instantly. Otherwise I move my voice (in my head) until I have reached the right 'tension' in my vocal chord.
So perfect pitch must be a learned skill. I could do that as a toddler. I must be kind of attuned to vibrations or something I guess.
It's interesting that although the ears may pick up a different sound from others' ears, the brain interprets it (By previous experience/comparisons) and we end up hearing roughly the same kinds of things!!
It makes you wonder whether someone who has played an instrument for a long time is able to 'put back' missing frequencies so that say, headphones seem fine to them due to the process of adding missing info based on past experience. Now that sounds a bit odd, but may account for the fact that I can use quite a lot of headphones quite happily, although perhaps some are harder to listen to for longer periods than others.
My brain is translating and perhaps even adding information based on experience?
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Post by imstimpy on Feb 24, 2014 19:49:55 GMT
My father also had perfect pitch. While I am musical, I'm not sure I received the "curse". I've been meaning to pick up the violin again so maybe I'll find out.
I was working through the Golden Ears, but had to stop on the noise test. I was connected to a loud desktop computer (case fans) and open headphones. I'll continue once I bring my Denon's home for the weekend. I do believe that some ears may be more resolute than others, but I also believe you have to know what you are hearing for it to be meaningful. The Golden Ears "shows" us what we are hearing and that is why I find it most intriguing.
An artist's eyes see things others do not, just as a wine afficianado can taste things others cannot. Should hearing be any different?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Feb 24, 2014 20:56:26 GMT
Indeed I don't think hearing is that different from other senses and know that hearing as well as sight, touch, taste and smell are easily fooled.
Hearing can be trained which is what musicians do when they start to play but focus on other aspects than I would as I do. I am fully aware that there are people out there that can tell various brands of instruments apart and name them. I would only be able to say both are instrument X and sound somewhat different.
I am quite convinced that those people that can tell those instruments apart can do so blindfolded and get it right every time.
The problem in audioland is that many claim/think/suspect/know that they can hear this or that. In some cases (as explained above for DAC's with digital filtering off or set to slow while playing CD's or max 48kHz files they will be able to do this blindfolded.
It is also very possible to tell 2 things apart when there is a slight level difference or uneven Frequency range or high amounts of distortion are present.
Also it is very likely artist X, album A may sound better in hi-res format than in CD format and a vinyl pressing may sound even better than hires to some. This usually is because different mastering is done and vinyl NEEDS to have certain attacks compressed in order to keep the needle from jumping out of the groove. The sound is different BUT this is because of a different DR, compression or other mastering techniques and NOT because of the format or resolution.
Troubles start when certain statements are made about this or that and people make claims but are unable to repeat those claims when tested blind in the correct way (level matched and checked for minimal requirements). Sure their present friends will all hear it and the performed 'blind' tests are uncontrolled but valid acc. to them.
There really is no substitute for trying yourself. Golden ears program is a fun tool to get a taste. Running blind tests under controlled conditions and statistical relevance is key to understand boundaries of what you (or others) can and cannot hear.
I have been at this way of testing for over 20 years and all I can say is ... is gave me insight in what I (and those I have met and 'tested' can discern and where boundaries lie.
Key is to only test what one wants to test (change only one thing) and know where the pitfalls are during those tests.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Feb 24, 2014 22:21:06 GMT
I am one of thhose people who can spot where an orchestra comes from based on the sounds of individual instruments. An American oboe is very different from and English one as is a German or Italian or the reddy French sound. I spot it immediately and it often influences which recordings I buy.
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Post by deireleire on Feb 28, 2014 14:02:17 GMT
Really thought the test was a fun way to get acquainted into the different aspects of sound. But the frequency test at the end where you have to choose between 9 freq's cut or boost is a little too much for me. I can hear dif between cut and boost and can tell if it's high or low but what freq... that's not golden ears, that are trained ears (IMO). Was very surprised at the minor difference in the compression section, thought it would be much easier.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Feb 28, 2014 17:10:16 GMT
It's a nice way of 'learning' what certain 'artifacts' sound like and in a way is pretty educational. You are right though, I think it's a 'trained' ear that spots these things more easily and it can be learned.
Interestingly, I might use a different headphone in order to identify 'problems' with sound. For instance, if I'm listening for distortion or hiss, I find that the Sony V6 points it out really well, but I don't necessarily use the V6 to listen to music!!
Tests are all well and good but they have to be considered as a 'technical' test which might show faults or problems that really don't always show that much in the real world of listening.
That's where I think the 'snobbery' element in hi fi comes in to play. Where people might say something along the lines of how they can't 'bear' a certain headphone or lower quality files when in reality, they actually might be hard pushed to hear the problems they describe in terms of real life music listening. Instead of getting on with enjoying the music, they fosuc on these terrible artifacts they claim to hear!!
It's a bit of fun in any case.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Mar 2, 2014 10:41:38 GMT
I wanted to do the goldenears test but alas it doesn't work on XP nor ubuntu.
I know... everyone has W7 or W8 by now... Not me XP and Ununtu 10.04 works fine for me so haven't felt the need update.
Will do this later though... maybe with the office PC in the evening hours.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 2, 2014 14:14:07 GMT
I use XP Frans, but not at work. It'll be open to all kinds of internet goodies once the support goes.
It would be nice to test the gear with it just to see how much could be detected!! (The gear other than the ears I mean!!)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 22:24:14 GMT
I wanted to do the goldenears test but alas it doesn't work on XP nor ubuntu. I know... everyone has W7 or W8 by now... Not me XP and Ununtu 10.04 works fine for me so haven't felt the need update. Will do this later though... maybe with the office PC in the evening hours. I completed the basic test a few days ago on my little Acer netbook which runs XP sp3.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Mar 2, 2014 22:33:50 GMT
So it should be possible with XP (SP3) ?
When using Firefox I could log in and then got a quick 20% progress which quickly became 0% After pressing continue the screen got dark with a rotating progress bar stating 'loading audiofiles' I let it go on for about 15 minutes and after F5 (refresh) I did the same... same thing happened.
Also tried IE7 (don't use IE so haven't tried IE8) and I got the same notification as with Ubuntu (firefox as well) that the browser is not supported.
I may have to DL IE8 and see if it works. Looks like a fun exercise to me so was anxious to give it a go.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2014 22:57:47 GMT
So it should be possible with XP (SP3) ? When using Firefox I could log in and then got a quick 20% progress which quickly became 0% After pressing continue the screen got dark with a rotating progress bar stating 'loading audiofiles' I let it go on for about 15 minutes and after F5 (refresh) I did the same... same thing happened. Also tried IE7 (don't use IE so haven't tried IE8) and I got the same notification as with Ubuntu (firefox as well) that the browser is not supported. I may have to DL IE8 and see if it works. Looks like a fun exercise to me so was anxious to give it a go. Frans, I use Chrome so maybe that made a difference?
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