solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Feb 8, 2015 8:43:05 GMT
I'm not going to do this any more. The closer I get in EQ to the curve produced by the hardware filter the more the Ember begins to sound like my O2. It seems as though I'm removing some of the qualities that were introduced by the Ember and I like that the way it is. I mean, the 650 has a warm mid-bass hump and, even if only slightly, the Ember seems to add to that. So if I cut that hump am I not just cutting the colouration of the Ember? Don't worry, those questions are rhetorical. I need to do some reading. The filter adresses Frequency issues and makes it 'flat'. The Ember is equally flat as the O2 when it comes to frequency range. What the tubes do is ADD harmonics and mostly 2nd harmonics. The higher the signal level the higher the harmonics. As the bass energy is most present in music (as are voices) the harmonics reach an amplitude that are audible. Because the bass and voice (as well as most other sounds in nature) have harmonics by themselves the 'added' 2nd harmonics are not perceived as distortion but as 'richness' of the tone. That richness of the tone will thus be most present in the 50-300Hz region (the same region as the hump in the HD650). If you flatten the FR too much (and thus over compensate) it won't sound 'correct' any more. There is a fine line between accurate (perfectly compensated) and slightly coloured in the warm or cold way. Good thing is though that, should you buy a module from Jeremy when it becomes available, and you find it too 'cold' (matter of getting used to b.t.w.) but do find the warmth of the HD650 a bit too much it is easy to change some values and add just that little bit of warmth again and have a +1dB hump instead of +3dB.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 8:50:50 GMT
Thanks Frans, I'm learning all the time. I actually hadn't fully grasped what harmonics were but I understand it now.
My post above was mostly born of frustration at not being able to re-create or hear this sub-bass Ian was talking about. Having slept on it last night I suspect I may know what's wrong there. Maybe I simply can't hear it because my hearing has degraded so much. I have a CD somewhere with test tones that go all the way down - I'll check it out.
Thanks again for the technical help, it's invaluable.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Feb 8, 2015 11:19:51 GMT
Normally, hearing degrades high up rather than down in the bass, Gordon. I have to say that the Senn isn't as 'flattering' to poor recordings, so if there isn't anything much on the recording itself, the Senn no longer plants anything much onto it. It's not the same as a 'naked' Senn which is bloomed by comparison. One advantage of that bloom is that poor recordings or MP3 actually (at least rougher ones at lower rates) are still pretty good. Once the bloom is taken down, it reveals the rough edges, so you may well feel that the hd650 character has gone.
If you can get past the idea that it's no longer a fat sounding Senn HD650, you'll find an accuracy in the sound that is extremely good. (If you prefer accuracy that is)
Some don't like the HD600 in spite of it actually being pretty good fr wise. The treble isn't quite as refined as the 650 but the 650 is much closer to the 600 once filtered.
It might also be that you don't aclimatise to headphone sound as quickly as I do perhaps? I adjust very quickly to most headphones unless they're ridiculously 'off'. I can accept most. I think it's because I use so many all of the time and have more of an 'overview' of what to expect. I don't get particularly attached to one sound. I also kind of listen 'through' the headphone and hear more of the musicians effort rather than just the notes. I find that a good headphone portrays the 'effort' more clearly than just make a different sound. The Senn lets you right in to the player but your mind has to work at it to get there, I think, if you're not a player yourself.
Actually, it's something that I 'teach' to students ... Accessing music via headphones to 'reach' the musicians, and not hear just tonal information. (Although tonal for a musician is very important - probably more important than spacial clues which I seem to be useless at on a headphone)
This sounds balmy, but listen and ask yourself technical questions about what kind of guitar? How is it played? Are they all in the same room? I also find it easier for some reason if I consider my listening position to be higher than the players. I have no idea why that helps.
For instance, I'm listening to a guy strumming a guitar from Airbag at the moment and I can absolutely clearly hear what strokes are up strokes and which ones are down strokes. I can also hear the others I another room. Also, the electronic overdubs from synths are planted with no room ... They are DI feeds. In other words, the Senns help me kind of deconstruct recordings and hear the struggle (sometimes) that musicians have everyday in performing as well as they can.
It's very subtle, but the clues are there in good headphones and one of the tricks that engineers commonly use in order to get people to play convincingly in a studio is to make sure that the playback system that you might be recording into is tonally correct and as loud as life so that you feel as though you are actually playing with the band rather than isolated. It's actually very important for them to get that right, or its kind of difficult to play well. You need something really good to play 'into'. You have to play almost at life volume or else, you just hold back all of the time.
Engineers do it routinely via eq, which is something that hi fi guys get very snotty about. That's also why my Beyer DT150 sounds so good to work with and a let down at home. They eq it, even sometimes with test tones before any recording can take place.
The Senn, believe it or not has more bite in the treble than I'd use to play into, but that's good for home hi fi, where we listen at more sensible levels. I now find that it's closer to the players by a long way. No longer in row 'M' as some have described it. It's in the room and close.
It takes a kind of 'training' as Frans has suggested in order for your mind to accept the sound and some can't get past it because they've had chocolate for so long with regards to headphones!!
Nothing wrong with that, it's just a preference.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 13:02:26 GMT
I've actually noticed that with other musicians conversations. There's something you hear through to that we mere mortals can't get a grip of.
Here's an analogy of sorts. Other car drivers make the worst passengers. Does that make sense? We can sense the accident before it happens.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Feb 8, 2015 13:10:07 GMT
Yes, it does actually. I really good headphone just gets the music kind of closer, if you know what to listen out for. The clues are all there. If you have a headphone that reproduces it, it's just a lot easier. Just to illustrate how you can hear in .... I was recording someone singing on Friday and I noticed on headphones that the sound of the voice was moving in intensity. When I looked up, the singer was barely moving her head up and down, but I was clearly detecting it on the headphone. Told her I'd have to tie her head down!! It wasn't a lot of movement, but I was getting it on the listening. One answer is to move them away from the mic, but then room acoustics and mic noise can be a problem so it can be kind of crucial to the recording quality. A flat headphone kind of let's you in closer. You can also listen slightly louder actually, without pain!! I don't know why this should be though .... I seem to be hearing a better dynamic range on the Kameleon. Louis seem to be going ridiculously loud while sifts are, well, virtually there!!! Or at least I'm noticing it much more. Perhaps volume related.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 15:01:22 GMT
I'm listening to Dire Straits Communique album right now with my PEQ set to as close as I can get to Frans' hardware curve & I definitely see the merit in it. As Ian says, my headphones have pretty much disappeared. It's uncanny.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Feb 8, 2015 16:11:13 GMT
You hear more of the effort in their playing rather than sit back at a distance in a hall. That's what I get. You're more aware that people are making sounds, not the hi fi!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 22:35:53 GMT
Yeah, I hear that. I remembered that I have the flac version of the Alan Parsons & Stephen Court Test CD. I start hearing the bass at 25Hz but I've no idea what my volume should be set to. I also have the Ultrasone Test Demo CD which has an organ piece called Also sprach Zarathusa, which is nice. It's incredible actually. According to SPAN Plus I'm hearing down to around 20Hz. I've no idea who's playing though because the album is not tagged (yet) and I can only find artist/track info. As in it tells me it's by J.S. Bach but it doesn't tell me who's performing. Good album though & very handy.
My first job after leaving school was in a local hi-fi shop & Technics were doing a promotion at the time where I think you bought a CD player & you got a free Technics sampler. There were loads of them; a jazz one, a classical, a blues, you name it. They werent all great but some tracks were damned incredible. There was one that was a thunderstorm and a classical piece called Banditen Gallopen, can't remember who by. Anyway there are whip-cracks on that track that defy belief.
quad also had a demo CD and one of the tracks was simply a guy standing in a garage and closing one of those swing-up doors. Nothing amped or anything. Because it was Quad of course we had the main room set up with ESL's but in the evening the Quad's were gone and a pair of Ruark Templar(?) floor-standers were brought in. The early ESL's had woeful bass. I left the company right after they starting selling REL sub-woofers and my world was never the same again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2015 11:15:51 GMT
Well, that was interesting. As soon as I switched back to the O2 last night the sound was edgy as hell. Really difficult to listen to. I switched off my PEQ so I was hearing a bit-perfect source and it helped, but not a lot. It seems the mid-bass bloom of the HD 650 is there for a reason and no doubt that's why they are considered a forgiving headphone.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Feb 9, 2015 15:41:56 GMT
The Ember is way ahead, Gordon. It's amazing how you get used to the sound and a lot can be taken for granted. Go back though and as you have found, what you thought was good isn't quite up to it.
I find that with headphones as well. The funny thing is that it doesn't always take a lot to make a headphone shine. It can be a small tweak and suddenly, your listening takes off.
The Ember gives lots of detail and power, so you can get a fantastic dynamic range. You soon adjust and don't realise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2015 11:25:58 GMT
I now have the Ember hooked up again & I've tweaked my EQ settings so that the mid-bass cut is now only -2.0dB as opposed to -3.0dB. If the previous setting was close to flat then I'm just a wee bit warmer. It's actually very difficult to hear a 1dB change, for me anyway. It's there though and noticeable on most recordings. I did use the -3dB cut last night listening to Patricia Barber and it works with her music, presumably because her music is beautifully recorded (to my ears). I think the bass bloom is there because on most modern recordings it helps add weight to an overly compressed recording. Patricia's music is recorded so well I can hear the room. With jazz I need to be able to hear the bass clearly and she nails it. The mid-bass hump that's naturally present in the HD 650 just gets in the way with recordings like that. There's less room for error I guess. If only all music was recorded that way.
There's a channel on YouTube called KEXP (you probably all know it) and I think the production values are really very good considering it's essentially a free service. However there's someone who does the mixing occasionally and I can hear, clear as a bell, when he's on the desk. Seriously, on everything produced by him the middle of the soundstage all but disappears. Ironically he seems to be the engineer on the music they show which generally ticks most of my boxes. That tends to be the music I'll go out and actually buy though so everyone wins really. Still, a very strange way to mix. I'll dig out more examples this afternoon or when I get time.
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