Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 17, 2016 10:45:24 GMT
Absolutely. The NH got me going as well. Absolutely opposites too. There is something that the FR graphs don't tell you too .... The clarity and the (what I feel is) room that you are listening in. The msr makes me feel as though I'm listening in an acoustically treated, small room with small monitor speakers. I have a feeling that the he-350 might be a little closer to the msr7. As useful as FR graphs are to me, they don't tell the whole story really. Headphones measuring flat still sound different and there are a lot of other factors that affect what we hear. The AT is pretty flat actually, with a roll away in the bass and a treble that is more accentuated than the graphs migh suggest. Weird. Not sure I even trust myself anymore now!!!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 20, 2016 5:08:55 GMT
Purrin/Marv/Marvey/Messiah has meansured his HE350It should be noted that eveything that measures 'flat' on his rig is on the brighter side of things and lacks subbass ? Might be close in signature to the MRS7 ? Still for that price you cannot explain. Try some felt of toilet paper in front of the driver.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 20, 2016 6:36:47 GMT
I think you're right Frans. I just saw someone on HF who straight away mentioned too much top end and not enough bass. Certainly does sound msr7 like doesn't it? Oh well, my head is tuned in to that sound at the moment!!! My k712 sounds so rich and warm now...... I saw that graph from Purrin and he mentioned the toilet paper, which takes the peak down. At least that's what he said. I updated my address on Massdrop to send the headphone to me, but they didn't change it at their end, so mine's on the way to Mark in Scotland!!! What a pain. Not Mark ...... The company!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 20, 2016 9:55:03 GMT
Flat on Purrins rig is rolled off in the bass and with elevated treble on my rig. Something that measures according to Purrins 'B&K room curve' preference will measure 'flat' on my rig.
Mark will surely want to have a listen before he sends it onwards to you ?
The K712 is richer and warmer than the K701/702 anyway. I found the K701 to have too much 'clarity' and lack (sub) bass. The K712 and K7xx are definitely 'warmer'.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 20, 2016 10:10:10 GMT
Yes, of course Mark's welcome. Looks like it's hanging around in the USA at the moment.
The K712 is one of my favourites TBH. Not too much bloom. Just a fraction and smoother top. I have a K702 as well and it does indeed sound thinner. I'm going from memory, but it might be a bit easier than the old k701, or else the weird treble thing I got with the k701 has been 'fixed'. I always found something in the 701 top quite unpleasant and metallic.
I'm not really expecting too much from the he-350 if I'm honest. It's a cheap headphone so perhaps is ok for the money because I'm sure that if it was a good 'un, Fang would be quick off the mark with sales hype etc.
I'd just like a 'feel' of the Hifi build and feel of the headphone.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 1, 2016 10:07:36 GMT
The he350 arrived from Mark who very kindly acted as a PO box for me!! Box is pretty good in that it does protect the headphone well in the post and is good enough to store the headphone in. Snug fit inside too. Dual sided short lead, geared towards mobile use with right angles plug to mini jack and adapter. It's quite thick as well. A bit thinner than Grado leads but a bit more flexible. Nice plush pads. They are remarkably light on the head and on first listen, I'm not getting exactly what people describe on HF. This may be the result of using the msr7 for a little while, but I have also been creeping back to my beloved Momentum 2. Bass isn't as weak as I expected it to be from what I read. In fact, it seems to go down quite a long way and I'd say that there might be a slight rise in mid or upper bass!! It is well defined and very clean bass too. That was the first surprise. The treble goes up further than the msr7 and has a very 'crystal' quality about it. It is on the cusp of showing sibilance with bright recordings, but IMO, it's not as overly emphasised as people have said. Tttt and sssss on speech does get some emphasis. That might be my age and ears, but to me, it sounds very extended which is not the same as sibilant. I think that the Sony v6 is worse as far as sibilance goes. So bass and treble extension seem good. Clarity and the ability to follow individual lines is excellent. Sense of space is lovely. This is easier to get on with than the msr7. It's not as 'cold' sounding and yet reaches up a long way in FR. I had to pay a little extra with postage from Scotland but listening to it, I definitely think they were worth the money. Overall, the cost in U.K. Money with taxes for me was £115 roughly so without the Scottish trip, less to around £105. That is a bargain for the sound. They make some comment that the rrp is $300 and I could see it going for that if I'm honest. Roughly £250 - that seems about right. I'd prefer a bit cheaper at £200 given the build, which isn't bad, but is lightweight. So, I'm quite pleased with it TBH. Long term will show any nasties, and at the moment, I can see perhaps the treble might show up bad recordings, but there is a lovely clarity to the sound. For me, lack of bass isn't an issue at all. The msr7 has less bass quantity. IMO, Hifiman really haven't done a bad job with the tuning at all. Interesting that Marv's FR graph shows 20hz quite a bit lower than 1khz (10 or so) where this one shows it about 5 below 1khz. I see the bass hump that I hear as well. There's a nice warmth there which I like. It has a deeper bass than the msr7. Peaks up in the treble. Actually, although the treble is accentuated, it's a nicer sounding treble quality than the msr7. It's not as cold sounding up there, although there's more of it!! Sloping downwards in mids. It's quite strange that to me, it sounds warmer than the msr7 but has more in the top end. There is also a deeper bass which would perhaps help, but the Hifiman isn't a cold sounding listen to me like the msr7. It's really not that shabby at the price it's being sold at. If Massdrop do another one, I think that they are really worth the asking price. (And more actually)
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Post by marveltone on Oct 1, 2016 13:08:38 GMT
Those look nice, Ian. Judging from the FR graph, I'd say the bass extension looks to be quite good, and the treble doesn't appear to be too offensively peaky. It will be interesting to see what you think of them after a week or so of solid listening. Curious to see them compared to the K712. (My K7XX is shipping as I post this!)
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 1, 2016 14:53:55 GMT
I normally get a good 'feel' for a headphone very quickly TBH Joe. Two that I had the biggest problem with was the Nighthawk and the MSR7. Almost opposite in sound and I couldn't really feel I liked them or not. I could adjust to them, but was never sure that I liked them. They both have a very different kind of sound sig. For me, I think the easiest to get accustomed to was the Nighthawk because it produced a solid bass. The msr7 just doesn't seem very musical sounding to me, although I can appreciate it's laser qualities in the way that it gets into the music, but for me is it has to sound musical; even to the detriment of detail. This one is easier on the ear for sure and noticeably extended compared to the msr7 which almost sounds like the extremes are missing by comparison. I think Frans pointed out that possibility in the msr7 thread actually. Theygive solid mids and detail but almost like a limited bandwidth kind of feeling. The Hifiman doesn't sound anything like as restricted and is pretty easy on the ear, sounding very natural. Spoken voice sounds good, so the middle area is ok and there's no bloom, although music bass has a nice richness without blowing out the mids. I can understand people having a problem with the treble, but it's not bad for me. In fact, I find the top very good tonally. There is a touch of sibilance perhaps. It's not a biggie though. The k712 is smoother in the top end I think. There's not as much and it sounds more Sennheiser like. I really like the k712 a lot. It has a great balance between the Sennheiser 'phatt' sound and those AKG thin sounds. It sits in the middle very well and has a great balance. At first, it can sound quite ordinary until you hit a really good recording, when you notice that it goes really deep and has a great inner clarity. The other one that Massdrop did that is very good is the k553. I noticed in Florida that the Guitar Center stocks them. They're better than the k550 since the spike up top is nowhere as strident and they are slightly more bassy. That really makes them for me. Trouble is that I've heard so many headphones that I have kind of got a sound that I like fixed in me I think, and when something comes close, I instantly identify with it. The other thing that I find hard to understand is the statements that you see about 'detail'. I find that most headphones convey most of what is on the recording TBH. For me, the timbre or tone is the first thing I have to like and then I listen for spatial elements and whether the tone and spatial aspects help you to hear detail more clearly. Even cheaper headphones produce the same detail, I think, but don't make it quite as obvious, but when you get a headphone with a smoothish response, the detail is heard more easily because other aspects of the sound aren't pushing it back. I think I'm getting more philosophical with age and tend to try to analyse more what people describe and then listen for myself. What surprises me about the Hifiman are the reports on HF. Not because it's HF or anything, but the idea that someone has focused on treble issues and the rest have followed so that there is a kind of skewed description given overall. It does an awful lot well and to me, the treble isn't that much of an issue at all. Or the supposed lack of bass; in fact, I think the bass is placed pretty well with a hint of warmth in there with that little boost. I like a bass that goes down but not too humped in the middle/top bass, I think. A little boost just helps with weight, but too much and spoken voice is destroyed. You'll probably really like the k7XX headphone IMO. If it's like the k712, it'll be 'unremarkable' but later, real surprises will appear. Although they're not bad to drive, I think an amp also helps with them, even at lower volumes. For the next couple of weeks, I'll be on the Hifimans which I really do like, which is annoying because I didn't like Fang's antics re the he1000 and felt that I would never support the company again. I might be shooting myself in the foot though because the he400s looks pretty good!! At the moment, I'd say the downsides of the he350 are perhaps some might not like the cable being two sided and quite thick for its length. The pads are quite hard and can be itchy. As far as sound goes though, it's pretty good TBH. (Damn them!!! ) Quite a surprise to me because after reading HF reports, I really wasn't expecting too much at all. I'm currently listening to a group called, 'Wobbler' and on one section, there's a bass and a bassoon playing in unison. You can really hear the woody tone of the bassoon with the bass resonance and the reed sound on top absolutely clearly. The bass guitar also sounds like a proper stringed instrument rather than just a thud in the bass. (A bit like when a guitar player changes his strings for new ones and there's an added twanginess to the sound) That could be the treble perkiness, but it sounds extremely real to me. I can also detect recording distances from microphones more easily. Quoted figures: Frequency Response - 20 - 20khz Impedance 19 ohms Efficiency 98db Weight 10.58oz or 300g With that low impedance and the efficiency rating, they probably need some current to drive them properly. I saw some recommendations of tube amps, but I suspect SS might be better perhaps given the sensitivity figures.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 2, 2016 7:14:29 GMT
Perhaps a filter for the MSR-7 might make it much more palpable. A bit more grunt and removal of the 'edge' may make them a lot better. It does wonders for the HD800 as well (also too thin and bright in the treble) Interesting that Marv's FR graph shows 20hz quite a bit lower than 1khz (10 or so) where this one shows it about 5 below 1khz. I see the bass hump that I hear as well. There's a nice warmth there which I like. It has a deeper bass than the msr7. Peaks up in the treble. Actually, although the treble is accentuated, it's a nicer sounding treble quality than the msr7. It's not as cold sounding up there, although there's more of it!! Sloping downwards in mids. The plots from Marv and Jude are very similar. The ones from Tyll (above) are more smoothed though so the treble issue is not as visible as in Marv's plot. Marv shows -6dB at 20Hz where Jude says -5dB (opposite 1kHz). Jude says the bass bump is about +2.5dB and so does Merv's. Purrin measures -7dB at 2-3kHz (no Pinna) where Jude measures it at -7dB as well but with Pinna. The 5kHz peak measures at +5dB in 'the Messiah's' plots where in 'King Jude's' plots it also is +5dB When I were to measure them the treble spike will probably show up to be a bit higher (I reckon +7dB) than both of these plots and at 20Hz mine will probably show it to be around -7dB or so.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 2, 2016 8:32:11 GMT
It's much easier to live with than the msr7 Frans. In fact, I quite like it so far. People are going on about burn in, but as you know,I don't hear much difference with most headphones, new or burnt in!
The enclosures 'sound' very different. Just listen to nothing with the headphones on and the msr7 sounds quite shut in, in acoustic. I know this sounds weird, but I do often listen to the acoustic of the cups themselves. I can hear that 'acoustic' planted onto the sound very often.
IMO, the cups of the msr7 do a lot to its sound. I kind of feel as though the enclosure does something to the treble. It's not a nice quality of treble IMO. Not as extended and hard sounding. I find that more objectionable than the quantity of bass I think. It has this hard, unmusical property and I wonder if the pads/cups do this. Then the drivers have been tuned with it all in place so that measurement wise, it looks OK, but the sound is tonally 'off'. A filter might fix it, but it's not so practical mobile then which is really what it's designed for. The Momentum 2 with its colourations is far more pleasant for me.
I do wonder whether there is some way of measuring what the enclosures do with no music playing. Being able to measure cup resonance and reflections in there might be really difficult but I get the feeling that the msr7 is adversely affected by the cups. Put a tiny tiny, mini speaker in there and play a sweep, measuring resonances? Sounds sci fi but there must be all kinds of things going on in what is in effect, two tiny rooms for listening in.
The Hifiman goes much higher into the treble without hardness. It's 'sweeter' sounding. There is a peak but it's not as bad as I've read for me. That might well be my hearing though. Bass is also more than expected. I find the bass quite well done and balanced but I suspect that criticisms might be coming from people used to a big hump in that region.
Bass distortion has been measured to be quite high so maybe that warms it up in the bass? It's very impressive tbh and I think ii initial criticisms are a little bit harsh. Better than an HD598 IMO but it doesn't have 'Sennheiser' as it's name. I suspect some are hearing problems that I find very minimal.
I expected a much worse headphone but what I got doesn't match what I've read so far very closely at all.
Then again, I expected the msr7 to be really clean and vibrant, when frankly, I got a disappointment.
Maybe an ex musician's ears aren't as analytical as a HiFi enthusiast? They look for clarity, even at the cost of timbre, where for me, the timbre needs to be close to reality, even if clarity isn't as good. Could be that my brain puts the clarity in perhaps whereas non musicians need that clarity more.
I don't know. I find quite a bit of difference sometimes between what a full, hardened enthusiast likes and what I like.
Anyway, I'm finding the HiFiman to be a 'fun' listen while many go on about a lack of bass and piercing highs!!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Oct 2, 2016 11:45:09 GMT
I think reflections can be made visible with a squarewave/step response. Reflections will be a LOT lower in amplitude and may not be visible on a linear scale (which a scope is) but should develop a log scaling amplifier between the test rig and oscope. Shouldn't be too difficult to make. reflections will always have a time delay and may interact with resonances in the driver itself.
On a scope (with log scale voltage values) differences should be visible when comparing shots of 'stock' headphones and that of one with some damping material applied to the cup behind the driver. A potential problem there is that with many of todays headphones the rear of the driver is very close to the cup giving less room to apply effective reflection damping.
Possibly they can also be visible in the FR graph but chances are a slightly different position will give larger differences than the real differences.
In FR it may thus not be visible so is a time domain issue. Ears trigger on time domain issues (our ears are designed for this)
A driver being 1 cm away from the rear of the cup has a reflection bouncing back in about 2ms. In the 15kHz range. The (lowered and slightly smeared) reflection will then interfere with the signal coming from the front and f'up the original wave form to some degree.
There is only so much one can change about this.
One is to change the shape so reflections go to the sides where there would be a possibility to damp it before it bounces back. This would also lengthen the time it takes for the reflection to bounce back.
Making the cup/driver distance bigger would allow for elaborate damping materials to be placed.
Opening up the rear is another option (the HE350 is), just not if it needs to be closed (MRS7).
So if a headphone needs to have a small form factor (be as flat as possible cause the portable market demands it) and closed then little can be done. Maybe reflections could be made a tiny bit smaller. It also cannot be filtered out either so is an aspect of that headphone. An issue speakers don't have (but these do have other issues)
When playing around with Superlux and T50RP's in the back I made mods with and without rear damping against the wall of the cup. I have to say that measurement wise and tonal balance wise it didn't make any differences (didn't look with squarewaves). When listening to headphones it did appear to be somewhat 'cleaner' in the treble though but no major differences when directly comparing modified and not modified. The perceived differences could well have come from differences in drivers or slightly different positions on the head.
Non the less I do prefer to open up the HD662-EVO and put some felt against the cup which probably helps with damping high frequencies somewhat. It is (marginally) better to my ears than just taping of holes, and using toilet paper instead of the thick Superlux felt. Even when the differences may be small it puts my mind at rest.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 2, 2016 12:20:07 GMT
Reflections must happen so close in timing to the original that I guess it could 'smear' the signal at some frequencies. How we hear that could be a 'hardness' in the treble perhaps? The msr7 isn't so much 'bright' to me, but 'hard' sounding. It's something to do with the quality of the treble. If that were smoother, I think it would be an easier sound to listen to.
I guess the old idea of a 'hanging speaker' with no real enclosure is a way around that. Brings the old 'ear speaker' back to mind. When I heard one though, it had very little impact in the bass. Very insensitive as well. I can't remember who made them, but they were discontinued a few years back now; probably because they made people look like an escapee from Doctor Who.
I wonder whether putting damping in the back is the same as having an open air speaker? It must put extra pressure in the back, kind of like playing into a curtain.
We have stuck with round or oval rooms for our headphones. A mini acoustic chamber might be interesting on each side.
It seems that most headphones sound good, but it's never long before some kind of artifact or anomaly is found, even in the high end. I must admit, I did smile looking at Tyll's write of of the Foster drivers in different forms. He hates the th900!!! That'll upset a few. He finds it shrill in the top which I must admit, it can sound harsh up there. I switch to the d2000 if that's the case. That's not quite as hard.
So while everyone has focused on its massive bass, it seems that there is a problem at the other end that got overlooked for some time. Rounded cups causing reflections, I wonder? Plus the extra space for the ears creating a space?
The problem with headphones as well is the cost doesn't always reflect the perceived sound. The Hifiman at around £100 is bettering much more expensive headphones IMO. It's biggest problem is possibly the top end sibilance though , but you get that in a th900 and pay quite a lot more for the privilege!!
Oh well, forever forwards ........
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Post by solderdude on Oct 2, 2016 13:19:23 GMT
The AKG K1000 and Jecklin floats were 'ear speakers' also some current Sony models.
Disadavantage is the bass 'shorts' itself because these waves bend around the driver and the rear and front waves from low frequencies 'cancel' each other.
Damping in the back prevents echos but too much of it damps the sound too much giving a constraint sound.
To me the king of cost vs sound = HD662-EVO.
Try some toilet paper in front of the HE-350, will clear up the sibilance most likely. Play around with a different amount of 'plies' from a 3 or 4 layer piece of toilet paper.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Oct 2, 2016 14:10:07 GMT
The Superlux is indeed a great bargain.
I might raid the loo and try the paper, although TBH, for my old ears, it's not actually that bad!!
I've only been listening for a couple of days now, but I'm getting quite hooked into the sound of these TBH. There is an emphasis up top but I don't find it objectionable at all. If anything, there is an openness and clarity up there that allows the stringy nature of bass guitars to literally sing. You can hear harmonics in some bass notes. This gives the bass sound a stringy texture alongside the normal kind of 'boom' that you get from them. Bass lines are very easy to follow.
Treble is boosted but it also has quite a silky sound with strings. Harsh recordings sound harsh. Fuller recordings become almost lucid in sound, where on the Senn Momentum 2, they can sound fat.... on the Hifiman, they sound more harmonically rich.
Acoustics are very plain. I'm listening to Michael Jackson and I can plainly hear the voice is in a different kind of room to some of the instruments. Slash plays a solo on one of the tracks that until now, I felt was just a series of chords, but actually, there is a melody in what is played that becomes apparent with the lucidness that you get with these headphones.
Mids, I'd say are ok. They can be a bit 'Barky' with some spoken voice. BBC voices sound quite 'chesty' but I've heard them at source and that's how I remember them of old! Kind of 'box speaker' like.
If this is typical of a Hifiman sound, then the planars further up must be stunning. These sound like way more expensive headphones and if the original he300 sounded like these, it makes me wonder why they were discontinued. They are an excellent introduction to the brand if the sound remains constant as you go up, with better resolution perhaps.
Tonally, these are very nice. They convey weight in pop and rock, but also the finer silky details of orchestral strings.
I am very tempted by the better Hifimans now, but I still have a slight miffed feeling about they way I was answered in the he1000 episode. Maybe people with Hifiman headphones might recognise what I'm describing in the sound and if that is typical of them, then they must be really good sounding headphones.
I'd say the basic characteristics of these are;
A lucid sound. Biased towards the top. Very open. Stringy sounding bass sounds rather than thick sounding. The feeling that they lack bass weight but actually, it is there and really well balanced in the way that it blends with the rest of the sounds. Good, fast attack as well.
I like these a lot. Perhaps the treble peaks compensate for my ears?
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Post by jello on Oct 3, 2016 19:18:42 GMT
There's a pair up on ebay UK if anyone missed or was hesitant to join the drop before impressions were in. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hifiman-HE-350-/122162712395?hash=item1c71770f4b:g:0kcAAOSw8w1X8VGCQuite fairly priced too which makes a nice change for ebay!! --- Enjoying reading your impressions Ian. Sounds like a very good headphone for the money. You are always welcome to have a loan of either of my pairs of HFM if you decide you want to hear their planars. Since we're on the same land mass postage won't be too prohibitive. Have the filter for the HE-560 too so you could give that a burl too and see how Frans' has 'ruined' a perfectly good headphone
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