Javier
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Post by Javier on Jun 2, 2013 7:28:08 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 7:35:32 GMT
It's not the quality Chong, it's the music. I can get past all the hi fi stuff and zone in. I understand as you are more music than hifi. Can't blame you as you are a pro musician. I will also be at the same zone as you if I'm a pro musician and not some audiofool. It's really hilarious to think back to the roles that I had been before. In the bloody army, we thought of sabo and bobo kings, booking out, long weekend, looking at girls and disturbing them when our 3 tonner passed them, etc. In the hotel line, we sir and ma'am here and there so much as if those are the only words we know. In the manufacturing side, target and more targets and OT. In the sales side, argghhh what else but targets. In the school side, grades, grades and have you been doing well academically or else disgrace to your family and school and alma mata. AVfool, transparency, 3D, emotions, PRAT, etc. Only dead ------> Coffin nothing else.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 2, 2013 8:04:49 GMT
What? I'm going to disgrace my family and die because of Deep Purple. Ok - I like them. Only joking!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2013 13:19:15 GMT
Actually, DR only tells part of the story. How real is real when we hear the tracks also will be very different from what DR captures. Yeah, the spacial ques, details, smoothness to the original, depth, height, etc once compared will tell us which is better. I believe Ian has a knack to hearing that as he hears real live music all the time. Even to my untrain ears, the HDTracks version is superior on first hearing. I have the EMI CD. Whether original or not, I can't remember insitu. But the version shown in your link is the Australian version. So it's not the "original" UK version.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jun 2, 2013 16:40:51 GMT
DR is DR Chong, it is not subjective. It is perfectly measurable. It is certainly not the complete story but it does tell something about how the mastering was done. Recording/mixing and mastering have far more impact on the final SQ result than used format. Personally, If given the choice to pick the same version of a song in RB or Hi Res I'd probably take the latter but if the HiRes had a DR of 6 and the RB had 15, I'd take the lower Res any day.
Many remasterings are done to sound good on DAP/iPod/Smartphones, car radio or FM playing in "hostile" (read noisy) environments and thus are heavily compressed, or simply because most people tend to confuse louder with better (Loudness War). If you really seek "live sound" then the least compression the better though expectation bias can work wonders.
HD Tracks don't master anything themselves, they just sell whatever they are given by the labels. Some times it is very good and others has been overpriced utter crap. They have been caught selling as Hi Res up sampled 16/44.1 stuff more than once, not their fault but at least they could have checked before putting it on their site.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 2, 2013 18:51:53 GMT
If you really seek "live sound" then the least compression the better though expectation bias can work wonders. HD Tracks don't master anything themselves, they just sell whatever they are given by the labels. Some times it is very good and others has been overpriced utter crap. They have been caught selling as Hi Res up sampled 16/44.1 stuff more than once, not their fault but at least they could have checked before putting it on their site. Drums are especially difficult. The initial attack is way bigger than the body of the sound so compression is a real necessity or else you get this tinny, thin sound with no guts in it. A recording played in a car needs compression or else you'd be playing with the volume knob all of the time. To some extent, it is also needed at home or else you'd be sitting there listening to a quiet section when suddenly, you'd be blown out of the room by the dynamic contrast if we could actually capture that wide a range. However, there are different mixes often made for different conditions of the same songs. My favourite is the so called 'radio edit'. I'd accept that at 64KPS!!! It makes me cringe when I hear some disco stuff like Madonna where the background pad sounds are pumping away like they've run out of breathe. They sound disgusting and die on every bass drum thwack and then rise afterwards. It's almost become a common feature of disco stuff which is a great pity.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jun 2, 2013 19:56:53 GMT
Of course compression is necessary but one thing is balancing instruments and another reducing the whole composition to a range of 4dB. Compare the latest ZZ Top's recording "La Futura" with earlier albums like "Rio Grande Mud":
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed folder: ZZ Top - La Futura (2012) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Filename ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR4 over -5.19 dB 01 ZZ TOP - Gotsta Get Paid.wav DR3 over -3.67 dB 02 ZZ TOP - Chartreuse.wav DR3 over -4.17 dB 03 ZZ TOP - Consumption.wav DR3 over -4.66 dB 04 ZZ TOP - Over You.wav DR3 over -4.20 dB 05 ZZ TOP - Heartache In Blue.wav DR4 over -4.80 dB 06 ZZ TOP - Don't Wanna Lose, Lose, You.wav DR5 over -6.37 dB 07 ZZ TOP - Flyin' High.wav DR4 over -5.32 dB 08 ZZ TOP - It's To Easy Manana.wav DR4 over -5.13 dB 09 ZZ TOP - Big Shiny Nine.wav DR4 over -5.28 dB 10 ZZ TOP - Have A Little Mercy.wav ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of files: 10 Official DR value: DR4
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Analyzed folder: ZZ Top - Rio Grande Mud ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Duration Track -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR15 0.00 dB -16.13 dB 2:54 01-CD Track 01 DR15 -0.03 dB -17.01 dB 3:49 02-CD Track 02 DR16 -0.06 dB -17.02 dB 3:45 03-CD Track 03 DR14 -0.02 dB -15.10 dB 4:23 04-CD Track 04 DR15 0.00 dB -16.98 dB 3:20 05-CD Track 05 DR15 -0.15 dB -16.86 dB 2:47 06-CD Track 06 DR13 0.00 dB -14.96 dB 3:23 07-CD Track 07 DR14 0.00 dB -15.79 dB 6:49 08-CD Track 08 DR15 -0.14 dB -17.04 dB 3:21 09-CD Track 09 DR15 -0.65 dB -17.09 dB 2:26 10-CD Track 10 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Number of tracks: 10 Official DR value: DR15
Comparing the sound of both albums makes it easy to see my point, the old record has plenty of bass and life, the newer one is basically just loud, though some may think it is OK for that type of music anyway (I don't).
I don't understand the reason for squashing the music to such extent when it can be easily done at the player level. All DAPs, car radios or phones could implement strong compression leaving the music unharmed so it would sound much better when listened to at home on a decent system.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 2, 2013 20:33:58 GMT
Popular music typically has a dynamic range of 6 to 10 dB, with some forms of music having as little as 1 dB or as much as 15 dB
That may account for the differences as well Javier. I'm not certain whether that statement refers to Pop CD's or what is captured. It's not a lot is it?
Is there a different recording of Futura with a better DR or is that the only one? Also, does Rio Grande contain more loud/soft sections than Futura?
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jun 2, 2013 21:33:35 GMT
Popular music typically has a dynamic range of 6 to 10 dB, with some forms of music having as little as 1 dB or as much as 15 dBThat may account for the differences as well Javier. I'm not certain whether that statement refers to Pop CD's or what is captured. It's not a lot is it? Is there a different recording of Futura with a better DR or is that the only one? Also, does Rio Grande contain more loud/soft sections than Futura? You can see in the link below a good example of how DR has evolved for one specific record (Queen - The Game) from the 80s to 2011. Originally it was released with an album average DR of 12, the latest Japanse remastering has dropped it to 7: www.dr.loudness-war.info/index.php?search_artist=queen&search_album=the+game&sort=year&order=ascYou can search in the database for any artist/albun and sort ascending by year and you'll see this has been the norm since the mid 90s and gotten worse since the 2000s. Fortunately there are exceptions and some labels are beginning to realise and go back to proper DR levels. I'd say most "good" editions of pop/rock albums have a DR of 10-12dB some a little lower some can reach 15-17dB but they are scarce. 6dB would be too low IMHO. I haven't listened to La Futura, I just copied the DR from the DR Database site. I do have "Rio Grande Mud" though, very basic blues heavy rock music but fun when in the right mood for it. It has both loud/soft sections but hard to tell which ones dominate. This is the La Futura vinyl DR, a good 6dB higher than the downloadable file album but still 5dB lower than the other 80s ZZ Top releases: Analyzed folder: ZZ Top - La Futura (Vinyl-Rip) (2012) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR Peak RMS Filename ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DR11 -0.11 dB -12.18 dB 01 I Gotsta Get Paid.wav DR8 -1.04 dB -10.67 dB 02 Chartreuse.wav DR11 -0.01 dB -12.03 dB 03 Consumption.wav DR9 -0.99 dB -11.74 dB 04 Over You.wav DR10 -0.66 dB -11.70 dB 05 Heartache In Blue.wav DR9 -1.22 dB -11.63 dB 06 I Don't Wanna Lose, Lose You.wav DR11 -0.39 dB -12.66 dB 07 Flyin' High.wav DR9 -1.09 dB -12.20 dB 08 It's Too Easy Manana.wav DR10 -0.21 dB -11.50 dB 09 Big Shiny Nine.wav DR10 -0.32 dB -11.82 dB 10 Have A Little Mercy.wav ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Number of files: 10 Official DR value: DR10
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