jello
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Post by jello on Jan 28, 2018 21:59:42 GMT
That was my thinking too. Taking Takstar's comments at face value I was leaning towards production variance myself. However, after removing the pads I'm not so sure if they have perhaps snuck in a revision. Or could be a combination of the two...who knows!!! --- (Perhaps Frans may have some thoughts on this->) Just posted this on HF: I posted earlier about my new pair of P82 sounding different to the original pair I bought (more low end, less highs). Had more or less ruled out cables and pads playing a part. Thought it might be production variance as I believe Takstar have previously stated that there have been no revisions to the P82, cable aside. Peeled off the pads earlier and the plastic grille, vents, tape etc. all look identical. Didn't want to open the headphones up but I did see one difference on the drivers. With the new pair the centre of the drivers appears to have a darker coloured 'disc' in the centre (dark grey almost metallic looking - may be painted on?) whereas the old pair does not, or if there is such a 'disc' it is white like the surrounding area. Don't know if this is indicative of a stealth revision and whether or not it would result in sonic differences. Perhaps someone with more expertise in this area may be able to add some thoughts? Original pair bought late Dec 2017 from Headphoniaks w/ 2.2m cable (older white box): New pair bought mid-Jan 2018 from Takstar via Aliexpress w/ 1.6m cable (newer black box): ----- Although the first pair has less low end than I'd like myself (keep in mind I do generally prefer a bassier / fuller sound) I think for many it would be fine tbh. There is some life down there and it's better than some closed backs I've owned (T5P 2nd Gen bugs me more in that regard). But if you specifically wanted a pair that has deep / impactful bass then it does potentially become a bit of a gamble if there is different revisions in circulation and/or some inconsistency in the manufacturing process. There may be, there may not and I'm not sure anyone can say with any real certainty at present. Maybe in time things will become clearer but if most folk only buy the one pair it could be hard for them to tell (e.g. someone used to an HD600 might find their P82 to have ample bass whereas someone used to the TH-X00 may find the same pair lacking...does that mean they got a 'good' pair or a 'bad' pair?). For me it worked out quite well as I actually really like both pairs so ended up with a couple of good headphones for not a lot of cash. But like Forrest Gump says "the P82 is like a box of chocolates" and I guess that makes it harder to recommend to someone else.....although they are almost cheap enough they could always buy 2 or 3 pairs and keep the good one(s) (kidding of course)
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Post by Mr Trev on Jan 29, 2018 0:32:21 GMT
I can't say for sure if it's just the lighting or if the new drivers have a back vent the 1st doesn't. The differences in transparency of the driver material itself could also explain the difference (different materials, doping applied to the 1st pair). Looks like the driver on the bottom pic also has little bumps/dots around it that the top one doesn't (this is like those games in the newspaper where they give you 2 pics and you have to find the changes ) It very well could be that they have gone to a different driver entirely - again it could be the lighting throwing me off. Really, without word directly from Takstar not just the "Takstar store" all we have is speculation (my experience from AE has proven just because the store has the manufacturer name doesn't exactly mean its the official store). And ultimately, as long as you like them it really doesn't matter either. Funny you mention buying 2 or 3 and keeping the best one because that's what some people were doing back when Gibson bought out Philips and there were questionable X2s on the shelves
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jello
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Post by jello on Jan 29, 2018 1:25:40 GMT
Yes, I think it's very easy to put 2+2 together with this kind of thing and get 10!!
With my pics lightning is most likely the issue. It was dark so I had to use a spotlightand my phone camera's results can be rather erratic from one shot to the next even under favourable conditions.
That isn't a new back vent in the new pair, just shadow I think. The plastic on the grille is also different (one pair is black the other silver) which may not help either.
I didn't notice the spot on the new driver until I was looking at the pics. May be some excess material / coating rather than something done by design as the placement seems a bit random.
I do like both pairs and if I'm honest I almost didn't want to draw too much attention to the variation between them in case I made a mountain out of a molehill. They are far more alike than different and I do want to stress that the first pair isn't bass light per se and there's likely only a few dB in it. But equally I didn't want to brush it under the carpet as that may be the difference between them being 'just right' and 'so close, yet so far' for you or someone else. I don't use EQ myself but would imagine if applied well the two pairs might be near enough indistinguishable.
As you say other manufacturers are not immune this kind of thing either and in some cases the headphones cost many times more. That's a lot harder to excuse!
I do think the P82 is an incredibly good headphone for the money and has got me seriously questioning the wisdom of paying three or four digit sums for a pair of closed back headphones. Diminishing returns kick in incredibly fast and it feels like a lot of that extra pays for the brand name, better materials and fancier cables. QC isn't always better from my experience either.
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Post by Mr Trev on Jan 29, 2018 4:50:27 GMT
You sure that isn't a vent hole? The drivers on my ex-HP150 have a hole that goes through the centre of the magnet that looks very similar to your pic - other than the big metal screen of the front my drivers. The back of the magnet has the same type of filter paper covering the hole as on your baffles. Of course it's much easier to in my case since the driver has been completely removed - I wouldn't recommend you do the same, seeing as your pro 82 are still functioning . I'll need to wait this out. If there has been a change it sounds (pun partially intended) like I'd prefer the newest model and would want to make sure everybody has the same stock
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jan 29, 2018 5:54:38 GMT
The Superlux guy memtioned the HD688 was not changed either. Yet the driver looks, measures and sounds different and even the baffle was changed considerably. Clearly different drivers (in any case the membrane material differs) just not optically.
Even Sennheiser makes small changes (supplier stopping delivering materials) and not mention it and even deny it.
As long is it improves the sound I am all for it. In case of the HD688 the sound became worse. Made all my efforts in creating a modding guide void and put a lot of people on the wrong leg.
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jello
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Post by jello on Jan 29, 2018 11:56:30 GMT
You sure that isn't a vent hole? The drivers on my ex-HP150 have a hole that goes through the centre of the magnet that looks very similar to your pic - other than the big metal screen of the front my drivers. The back of the magnet has the same type of filter paper covering the hole as on your baffles. Of course it's much easier to in my case since the driver has been completely removed - I wouldn't recommend you do the same, seeing as your pro 82 are still functioning . Yes, I decided not to risk opening them up. It would only end in tears Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong thing with regards vents? I was assuming you were meaning a new vent hole towards the outer part of the grille. It's hard to tell because of the angled drivers but I think both pairs have the some vents running around the outside and presumably they allow some airflow into chambers below the taped ports. The little 'bump' on the grey disc on the new pair's driver is actually dead centre and not offset like it appears in the pic. Must have had it angled to try and get a clearer shot. The Superlux guy memtioned the HD688 was not changed either. Yet the driver looks, measures and sounds different and even the baffle was changed cnsiderably. Clearly different drivers (in any case the membrane material differs. Even Sennheiser makes small changes (supplier stopping delivering materials) and not mention it and even deny it. As long is it improves the sound I am all for it. In case of the HD688 the sound became worse. Made all my efforts in creating a modding guide void and put a lot of people on the wrong leg. It does seem a fairly common practice and companies are not always forthcoming. I suppose the problem of announcing these things is that it makes it hard to shift old stock and sometimes changes might not be an improvement so much as a cost cutting measure. The differences between both Takstars is not that drastic and not anything like what has been experienced with the proto & production HD688. That almost felt like a bait & switch job on Superlux's part and if I was you I'd have been pretty annoyed. Not just because of the work you'd put into the modding guide but also the subsequent misinformation regarding changes. It was going to come out soon enough so why they didn't just say so is a bit puzzling. Certainly hasn't done their rep any favours and has likely ticked some people off.
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Post by Mr Trev on Jan 29, 2018 18:50:00 GMT
A pic for clarity: Since nobody has offered up a logical explanation, I'm going to blame everything on Russian collusion and walk away
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jan 29, 2018 19:08:50 GMT
The vent is present in all drivers. It could not work without such a hole in the magnet. In the older driver the hole will also be present for sure. It just isn't visible as the plastic the membrane is made of is matte white/non transparant. The newer version clearly uses a totally different membrane with a different mold (which has the bumps)
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Post by Mr Trev on Jan 29, 2018 19:33:04 GMT
Thanks for the clarification Due to the membrane (and or lighting) I couldn't tell if there was a vent or not. I didn't realize that all drivers had that though. I thought as long as the back of the driver was open or at least had some vents that was good enough (like in loudspeaker drivers) I'll stick with my claims of Russian collusion until proven otherwise
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jello
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Post by jello on Jan 29, 2018 20:55:15 GMT
Ah, okay. Gotcha on the bumps. Didn't notice them running round the outside.
One other thing I noticed this morning under better light is that the bit with the outer ring with those bumps on is also a different colour on each driver. It's quite metallic and shiny looking (think aluminium foil) on the newer one whereas on the first one that part it is a slightly duller grey and has an almost translucent look about it.
Frans, are the differences between the two drivers you've noted a clear indication that I have two different revisions of the P82 in my possession? I assume that to be the case but you know what they say about assumptions....
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jan 29, 2018 22:27:12 GMT
Yes, quite different drivers... one can assume different membrane materials give different results.
As to why the driver change ... one can only guess.
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jello
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Post by jello on Jan 30, 2018 16:07:12 GMT
Thanks Frans. Appreciate you taking a look over the pics.
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Post by fhvioo on Jan 31, 2018 22:15:02 GMT
Hmm, interesting. Could you post a link to that aliexpress store you bought from?
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jello
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Post by jello on Jan 31, 2018 23:00:35 GMT
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jello
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Post by jello on Feb 6, 2018 16:12:41 GMT
Both pairs of P82 now on their way to Frans to measure.
Subjectively a good sounding portable headphone (firmly prefer the newer pair now) for not a lot of cash, but will is it one that will please those of a more objective disposition? I have no idea tbh (my ears like quirky tuning too much)!
From a purely personal p.o.v. I'm more interested in seeing just how differently my pairs measure. With further listening I suspect it is more than I initially thought. Not sure if it will be possible to tell for sure but I also wonder how much of that can be directly attributed to the changes to the drivers and how much to 'normal' production variance. There may well be an element of both.
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