|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 21, 2013 0:40:41 GMT
Israel, which studio versions do you think are good ones? There are so many to choose from, I haven't a clue. I must admit, I haven't heard a recorded one that I thought was top notch. Hi, Ian As I said in a previous post, the ideal top notch performance doesn't really exist. The perfectionist in me always seems to find some things in a performance that could be done faster, slower, louder, softer, better, etc., etc.,... Believe it or not, the studio recording that comes closest to what I would like to hear is Stravinsky's own version, with him conducting the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, made up from hand-picked cream of the crop, top notch New York's finest musicians. It is part of the Sony Stravinsky collection, which I own The sound quality is amazingly good, considering that these recordings were made in the 60's. You can pick it up pretty inexpensively at amazon.com - about $8.00 US at the US website. Another one I like for its precision is Boulez's 1969 recording with the Cleveland Orchestra -- Not the later 1994 version! I have read great praises about the 1958 Bernstein/NY Philharmonic recording, but I haven't heard it. For a while, it was out of print, and commanded some astronomical prices, but now there is a re-issue available, and I plan to check it out. I have many versions of Le Sacre, such as Collin Davis with the Concertgebouw, Lorin Maazel with the Cleveland Orchestra, Boulez's 1994 version with the Cleveland Orchestra, etc...etc...Many of them come close, but NO CIGAR! It is not the orchestras! It is the conductors that I have issues with! I think it was Arthur Nikkisch that said "THERE ARE NO BAD ORCHESTRAS -- JUST BAD CONDUCTORS!" I don't mean to imply that Maazel, Boulez, or Davis are bad conductors -- they just sometimes don't cut it in Le Sacre!
|
|
Rabbit
Administrator
Posts: 7,087
|
Post by Rabbit on Jul 21, 2013 6:43:37 GMT
Thanks Israel. It is very difficult and was a question asked on another site I sometimes go on and tbh, I couldn't answer. I have Stravinsky's recording somewhere.
I've always avoided Bernstein conducting this because he can be very eccentric and perhaps overly romanticise what he conducts. The Rite done in a romantic/dramatic way on purpose just doesn't work for me.
If I remember, I think Stravinsky's recording was almost mathematical in the way he kept time. (Rather like Ravel was) No injected pull ups for effect!!
I'll have a look around.
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 21, 2013 14:28:24 GMT
I've always avoided Bernstein conducting this because he can be very eccentric and perhaps overly romanticise what he conducts. The Rite done in a romantic/dramatic way on purpose just doesn't work for me. If I remember, I think Stravinsky's recording was almost mathematical in the way he kept time. (Rather like Ravel was) No injected pull ups for effect!! I'll have a look around. I remember playing Petrushka with Bernstein in 1955, and he did overdo certain sections at the expense of precision. Frankly, at the time I wasn't too impressed with his conducting, even with all the theatrics and dancing contortions on the podium. He improved greatly in his later years, having given up a lot of his choreography, and deferring to what the composer had wisely put down on the page. I completely agree with you! Stravinsky's music does not need to be enhanced with the individualistic subjectivism of egomaniacal conductors, who think that gilding the Lilly will make it smell better -- in fact when that happens, the Lilly ends up smelling worse to the point where it needs to be flushed down the toilet! Was it Claude Debussy that said to performers of his music: "Just play what is on the page! No More!? I like Stravinsky's performance of his own Le Sacre for exactly the reason you state - because it is mathematical! And he meant it to be as such! The complex polyrhythms require utmost precision in order to relay the excitement and brilliance of the music! I wish more over-romanticizing conductors understood this! This is also why I also like Boulez's 1969 Cleveland Orchestra recording, but to a lesser extent than the old man's version with those notorious NYC guys on Sony!
|
|
Rabbit
Administrator
Posts: 7,087
|
Post by Rabbit on Jul 21, 2013 14:47:43 GMT
I must find that Stravinsky version - I'm sure I have it somewhere!!! I have the New York Phil. I' have a look for the Columbia version. Aha .... found a Columbia version with Stravinsky. It was re released as a single CD in 2009 by Sony. This one .... I can't see the original recording date but it's damned good!!
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 21, 2013 16:04:17 GMT
Aha .... found a Columbia version with Stravinsky. It was re released as a single CD in 2009 by Sony. This one .... I can't see the original recording date but it's damned good!! Yes! It is this one! Dates back to the 60s if I am not mistaken. I recall how impressed I was with Stravinsky's conducting when I played with him in 1968 at his very advanced age (he was 85/86 then). No fancy wasted motions! Strictly business! He was precise, very easy to play with, and rehearsed with amazing energy! He was guest conducting then, and was traveling with Robert Kraft, and his daughter Soulima. He conducted Pulcinella, and his twelve-tone work Aldous Huxley Variations, and Kraft conducted Schoenberg's orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quartet op. 25.
|
|
Javier
Administrator
Digital bytes
Posts: 987
|
Post by Javier on Jul 21, 2013 16:19:44 GMT
|
|
Rabbit
Administrator
Posts: 7,087
|
Post by Rabbit on Jul 21, 2013 16:38:48 GMT
I'm not sure whether the green album is just the Rite taken from the box set Javier and released as a single piece in 2009. I'll have a look for that one too. There are LOADS of versions!! That cover sleeve doesn't come up in the UK. I think there was a different distribution arrangement made by Sony in the UK. (Trust them!!) They did a dirty trick on George Michael and now Stravinsky!!!
|
|
Javier
Administrator
Digital bytes
Posts: 987
|
Post by Javier on Jul 21, 2013 21:27:24 GMT
I edited the pic and link changing them to ones from amazon.co.uk but I think you may be right and they could quite possibly be the same recording.
|
|
Rabbit
Administrator
Posts: 7,087
|
Post by Rabbit on Jul 22, 2013 5:17:22 GMT
Yes, and the UK versions are secondhand I think as well. Possibly because they've been reissued as single CD's.
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 22, 2013 15:26:14 GMT
Hi, Javier If I am not mistaken, and this is from the Sony Stravinsky collection of the 1960s, Petrushka is the original version, and not the 1947 revision. Le Sacre is also the original version, I think. Cheers! Israel
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 22, 2013 15:37:03 GMT
Yes, and the UK versions are secondhand I think as well. Possibly because they've been reissued as single CD's. Hi, Ian I just checked my Stravinsky Sony box set, which I acquired in 1992, and the recording of Le Sacre that the old man conducted with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra was made on Jan 5 & 6, 1960 in New York City. I never cease to be amazed how good the sound quality is, coming from the time long before digital audio, etc. I read about another recording that Stravinsky supposedly raved about -- Yevgeny Svetlanov with the USSR orchestra, dating from 1966 I think. I will also check it out. Cheers! Israel
|
|
Rabbit
Administrator
Posts: 7,087
|
Post by Rabbit on Jul 22, 2013 15:39:55 GMT
Thanks Israel. You're a gem. The recording I have with him contains quite strong hiss from the tape and there are some minor tuning things going o9n in the woodwind, but I do like the performance a lot.
I can hear it's not the 1913 version - thee are differences in scoring.
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 22, 2013 19:49:08 GMT
Thanks Israel. You're a gem. The recording I have with him contains quite strong hiss from the tape and there are some minor tuning things going o9n in the woodwind, but I do like the performance a lot. I can hear it's not the 1913 version - thee are differences in scoring. I wonder if it is the same recording we are discussing. The CD I have has no noticeable hiss, but Sony may have succeeded in cleaning it up well. Is there a recording date on your CD? I just ordered the Svetlanov/USSR Orchestra CD of Le Sacre. I have actually lost count of the number of recordings of Le Sacre I have. When I first heard it (on the day that I first played it in 1951 with Markevitch conducting), I was so taken with it, that I started singing parts of it for my non-musician friends, who thought I was nuts to enjoy singing such ridiculously crazy tunes! They would say "Why don't you sing a nice melody instead?"
|
|
Rabbit
Administrator
Posts: 7,087
|
Post by Rabbit on Jul 22, 2013 20:37:41 GMT
No date, Israel. I suspect it's a reissue and as usual, they've remastered it to 'improve' it. Apparently that's what happened to my albums!!! The LP's are better.
I suspect that someone has 'enhanced' the treble slightly, in order to make it sound a tad more modern and unfortunately, hit the frequency of the tape hiss. It amazes me what some places master on tbh. Then they put it down to the age of the original recording!!
That box set isn't available over here and I suspect someone has tampered with the individual pieces and re-released them here, cheeky buggers!!
I like the performance although the woodwind are occasionally ragged. (I don't know if that's the same as yours?) Oboist is 'less' American sounding than the Dallas player. (The programme, Dallas!!!!)
There are SO many to choose from it's ridiculous. I can't settle for any one in particular tbh.
|
|
|
Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 22, 2013 21:52:27 GMT
No date, Israel. I suspect it's a reissue and as usual, they've remastered it to 'improve' it. Apparently that's what happened to my albums!!! The LP's are better. I suspect that someone has 'enhanced' the treble slightly, in order to make it sound a tad more modern and unfortunately, hit the frequency of the tape hiss. It amazes me what some places master on tbh. Then they put it down to the age of the original recording!! That box set isn't available over here and I suspect someone has tampered with the individual pieces and re-released them here, cheeky buggers!! I like the performance although the woodwind are occasionally ragged. (I don't know if that's the same as yours?) Oboist is 'less' American sounding than the Dallas player. (The programme, Dallas!!!!) There are SO many to choose from it's ridiculous. I can't settle for any one in particular tbh. It is a shame that this box set is not available in UK. I just found mine on amazon, and they are asking some ridiculous prices for it because it is out of print. Here is the link: www.amazon.com/Igor-Stravinsky-The-Recorded-Legacy/dp/B000002767/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_1. I can't figure out Sony! It puzzles me why they don't make it available! Also, Stravinsky recorded Le Sacre several times, and the copy you have may not be a genuine Jan 5/6, 1960 one. As you say, whoever remastered it, did not do it justice. There are a few fly by night operators, who try to make a few bucks by filling the void. Your copy may be a product of these.
|
|