Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 22, 2013 22:06:45 GMT
That's what I suspect Israel. It may not be the same recording and deaf engineers have mangled it.
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Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 24, 2013 6:39:45 GMT
I just heard two more recordings of Le Sacre.
The first one was the unjustifiably much touted, long out of print 1958 New York Philharmonic/Bernstein recording, now re-released and re-mastered by Sony in honor of the 100th anniversary of that riotous May 29, 1913 Première, attended by Paris' "Who Is Who"! After reading the insanely enthusiastic reviews, full of praise, I sat down to listen with some better than average expectations, but I should have known better! The Prima Donnas of The NY Phil. are fully revealed here in their sloppiness, with poor ensemble, lack of dynamic balance, missed notes (the Cor Anglais did this several times in the chromatic run introducing the low register alto flute solo in the "Ritual Action of the Ancestors" , rehearsal number 129, the movement preceding the final Danse Sacrale); missed notes later on the part of the bass trumpet in Eflat; out of tune playing in the horns, some times close to a quarter tone sharp, and seemingly unable to play soft. There seemed to be two dynamic levels: LOUD & LOUDER! " Pianissimo? What is That? We don't do that around here! Here, Every Man for Himself!" As I was listening, I couldn't help wondering if the praising critics, who wrote this nonsense are deaf, or do they simply believe that people will hear what they are told to hear? These critics quote Stravinsky to have uttered "WOW!" upon hearing this abomination! I am positive this was not followed by "how wonderful this is", and under his breath he must have thought: "WOW! This Really Stinks to High Heaven!" IMHO this is one of the worst recordings of Le Sacre that I have ever heard!
Then I listened to a wonderful new discovery for me! Le Sacre, as performed by The Montreal Symphony Orchestra with Charles Dutoit! The playing comes as close to impeccable as I have ever heard! One can take issue with some of the miking balance in the more complex textures, but I dare say that of all the performances I have heard, this is one of the outstanding ones, and even more exciting than the 1969 Boulez/Cleveland one! It is the 1921 version, and Dutoit's tempi, IMO are just about perfect! The Danse Sacrale is precise, driven (as it should be), and very exciting! I recommend this CD highly!. You can pick it up rather inexpensively at amazon.com
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 24, 2013 16:14:33 GMT
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Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 24, 2013 17:02:47 GMT
I find you always have to be careful with Bernstein conducting since he seems to go more trying to be as impressive as possible, almost 'popularising' orchestral works to the point of a bit sickly and in yer face type of thing. I sometimes find his Mahler the same. I can take or leave his work, but I do like his compositions a lot. His conducting later in his career was much better, having matured some, and gotten over his individualist efforts of showing everyone "how wonderful he was". The times he allowed himself be the conduit and let the music speak for itself were his best. When I did work with him, he hadn't yet gotten over himself, and I found those traits of his, such as his excessive podium choreography repulsive and a real turn-off. As just a member of the orchestra, I had to put up with it then, and made the best of it! He was the "Wunderkind", and I was just a flute player, who was trying to make a place for himself in the music world. I had my opinions, but had to keep them to myself, i.e. " put up or shut up!" These opinions stayed with me, and now I have the luxury of speaking my mind, for I have nothing to prove, nor am I looking for anyone's approval or a job. "Been there, Done that!" These are the privileges of being of age! One can be mercilessly and bluntly honest, unlike Stravinsky in 1958, when he uttered "WOW" upon hearing this terribly sloppy recording! I have the feeling you would enjoy it. Yes! The cover is racy, but isn't the piece racy as well? I would dare say that Le Sacre is incredibly sexy! No wonder a lot of rock musicians today are taken by it! Cheers! Israel
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 24, 2013 18:26:44 GMT
I have the feeling you would enjoy it. Yes! The cover is racy, but isn't the piece racy as well? I would dare say that Le Sacre is incredibly sexy! No wonder a lot of rock musicians today are taken by it! Now you're being a bit racey yourself, you rock god!!! Right, I'll give it a listen!!! Many thanks.
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Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 24, 2013 19:00:59 GMT
I have the feeling you would enjoy it. Yes! The cover is racy, but isn't the piece racy as well? I would dare say that Le Sacre is incredibly sexy! No wonder a lot of rock musicians today are taken by it! Now you're being a bit racey yourself, you rock god!!! Right, I'll give it a listen!!! Many thanks. Thanks for the compliment, Ian! At my age, it is a desirable attribute to be racy! I am old! Not Dead! Neither was old Igor during the time of the 1913 Premiere, when he became infatuated with Coco Chanel, later to settle in her chateau in more ways than one! Here is to raciness! Cheers!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 24, 2013 19:33:45 GMT
Coco - the dancer? He was a naughty boy eh? Actually, I have Delius up the road and Tippett used to live here too. Delius was a bit naughty too and it was the death of him!!
Nah ... there's loads of life in you Israel. It's blowing for all those years that's done it!!
I've downloaded a copy and if I like it, I'll get the CD. I might just get it for the cover though!!
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Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 24, 2013 22:44:33 GMT
No. Coco Chanel, the famous Haute Couture fashion designer, and developer of the Chanel No. 5 high priced perfume, in much demand by the ladies even today. She was notoriously promiscuous, had the hots for Igor, and invited the financially strapped composer and his wife, who was ill with consumption, as well as his children, to move in with her in her chateau. The two of them soon after started to get it on right under Igor's wife's nose, and this became a regular event until Coco got bored, and went on to other men, etc., etc.... This story is fictionalized in a book titled "Coco Chanel & Igor Stravinsky", by Chris Greenhalgh. Yeah! I don't know how he did all that, and at the same time kept up with his daily discipline of meticulously working on his compositions. One of the conductors with whom I played, Eleazar de Carvalho ( Kousevitzky's protege, along with Bernstein) was a personal friend of Stravinsky's. He told me stories about what a working day for old Igor at the time was like (late 1960s): after his usual morning exercises (pushups), he would have his breakfast, then go to his desk near the piano, where his work was neatly laid out, along with a whole bunch of sharpened pencils, arranged in perfect order, as well as the ubiquitous full fifth of Scotch! By the end of his workday, that fifth was completely drained! I don't know if this was his daily routine when he was living with Coco, but I am sure she found many ways to keep him satisfied, and keep him from drinking too much, for she wanted some of that energy for her own selfish needs! Actually Coco Chanel was a slut, and later in life, a Nazi informer and a spy! That was much after her affair with Igor ended. She died alone, a miserable, washed out old witch! Sounds intriguing. I bet there were stories about them as well! Until not long ago, I had to remind myself to act my age and start thinking old, but recently I had a few health issues to remind me of that! The school of hard knocks throughout my life has taught me to keep on kicking, and now I finally am back to my exercise routine to keep my ticker working! I like it very much. It is precise for the most part, but its forte, IMHO, is its raw power, especially in the Danse Sacrale!
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juke
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Post by juke on Jul 24, 2013 23:08:29 GMT
I tried getting Israel's box set from Amazon US but they wouldn't send it to UK, as usual. I finally found the UK version on Amazon UK. Strangely it didn't show in the 20 pages of Stravinsky offerings using their search facility but I tracked down the issue number and used that and it came up, strange. It has just arrived and so far I haven't played more than a few minutes but the date of the recording Israel referred to for The Rite of Spring is the same. It's offered for just over £24 upward (to hundreds!). www.amazon.co.uk/Works-Igor-Stravinsky/dp/B000PTYUQG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374706903&sr=8-1&keywords=8697103112Just watch if you are ordering, the seller in the main 'new' part is actually in Canada despite his trading name so the £24 might grow. There are some UK sellers there, new and used. Syd
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Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 24, 2013 23:25:12 GMT
I tried getting Israel's box set from Amazon US but they wouldn't send it to UK, as usual. I finally found the UK version on Amazon UK. Strangely it didn't show in the 20 pages of Stravinsky offerings using their search facility but I tracked down the issue number and used that and it came up, strange. It has just arrived and so far I haven't played more than a few minutes but the date of the recording Israel referred to for The Rite of Spring is the same. It's offered for just over £24 upward (to hundreds!). www.amazon.co.uk/Works-Igor-Stravinsky/dp/B000PTYUQG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1374706903&sr=8-1&keywords=8697103112Just watch if you are ordering, the seller in the main 'new' part is actually in Canada despite his trading name so the £24 might grow. There are some UK sellers there, new and used. Syd This looks like an incredible bargain, Syd! £24.00 is indeed a steal! I recall paying a lot more when the set was first published by Sony in 1991! I hope you enjoy it! Cheers! Israel
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2013 6:25:05 GMT
Thanks Syd. That was well spotted. I got fed up after 10 or so pages and you'd think Stravinky's own recording would be at the front somewhere!! Thanks.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2013 12:58:21 GMT
Israel, the Charles Dutoit recording is excellent!! The woodwind are really close knit.
What I really like is that there are some bass notes and inner details apparent on this recording that aren't so obvious on others. The big brass glissando in section one is pulled back a bit. Many conductors do this to try and make the ensemble glissando more dramatic - but I think it's dramatic enough on its own without too much help, when the whole section does a 'sick' slide down by a tone!!
The bassoon section comes though beautifully in places where they play these long notes while the rest of the band is really giving it some and you can still hear pedal notes on the bassoons down below.
It's a nice aggressive recording with a good sense of accuracy. The only thing is, I don't have a score here to check exactly what they're doing. (A bit like discussing an amp without the circuit diagram) Very dynamic though and really nicely in tune with all it's demands on the poor devils that have to play it.
The Dutoit one is the best one for me but I may have the wrong Stravinsky version. (or an idiot remix for the UK market)
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Post by imagemaker18 on Jul 25, 2013 14:37:26 GMT
Israel, the Charles Dutoit recording is excellent!! The woodwind are really close knit. What I really like is that there are some bass notes and inner details apparent on this recording that aren't so obvious on others. The big brass glissando in section one is pulled back a bit. Many conductors do this to try and make the ensemble glissando more dramatic - but I think it's dramatic enough on its own without too much help, when the whole section does a 'sick' slide down by a tone!! The bassoon section comes though beautifully in places where they play these long notes while the rest of the band is really giving it some and you can still hear pedal notes on the bassoons down below. It's a nice aggressive recording with a good sense of accuracy. The only thing is, I don't have a score here to check exactly what they're doing. (A bit like discussing an amp without the circuit diagram) Very dynamic though and really nicely in tune with all it's demands on the poor devils that have to play it. I am glad you like this recording, Ian! Something told me you would! I think you and I have similar ears and musical tastes. In my opinion this Dutoit recording is a sleeper! The Montreal orchestra is indeed up to the task! It has some of the virtuosity and flexibility of French orchestras (especially in the woodwinds) plus the robust and gutsy muscle of the better British and American orchestras in the strings, brass and percussion -- the best of both worlds! Charles Dutoit is no slouch himself. Swiss born, he was supposed to be Ansermet's heir to the Swiss Romande, but he ended up in the provincial Paris of North America -- Montreal, Quebec! IMHO, the Montreal orchestra is Canada's best. I have several of their recordings, most of them of French music - Debussy, Ravel, and like them very much! There is something special about them -- an enthusiastic attitude that seeps even through the barrier of the recording studio medium, which more often than not, can be an obstacle. You probably do have a cretin's remix by a tone-deaf engineer, for my Stravinsky 1960 CD is nothing like what you described. Compared to the latter, the Dutoit recording has an extra edge -- enthusiastic raw power! It is indeed a tossup! This is why I keep buying all these varied versions.... As I said before, the ideal performance of Le Sacre du Printemps doesn't exist! Only people's imperfect interpretations of it! As Stravinsky himself said, and I am paraphrasing, "Le Sacre du Printempts was always there! I was the conduit through which it came into being"
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2013 15:15:52 GMT
This one also has an amazing brass section Israel. Very precise and the french horn upwards glissandos (they always sound like ... whoooop to me) come through brilliantly and it wasn't until I heard this that I realised the horns play more glissandos than I first thought in that section. They continue while the orchestra let rip. American brass playing is imo, the best in the world. They just don't seem to struggle.
There's a jazz ensemble I met over in USA called BLAST. Academy kids and they go into training etc. They are so amazing. I was totally bowled over by their playing. At the time, they were doing a stint in the Epcot Centre in Disneyworld. My goodness, they are talented. Only in their teens and early 20's and note perfect performances of pieces by Ravel and jazz stuff, while dancing at the same time! Bolero was just fabulous, a tbh, that's not a piece that I particularly like. There's something brilliant about American Brass players. (also Canadian)They must have great teachers.
Funnily enough, the oboe sounds foreign(ish) to me but the cor-anglais really does sound like an American player!! The bass clarinet really cuts through too.
I love the bassoonists phrasing at the start too although he does a curious 'toot' on the top D on the second section of the solo!! It's slightly comical rather than whining. In the period instrument version, you can hear him really struggling with that top D, whereas this player makes it sound easy. In the opening section where all the melodies intertwine, you can plainly hear the bassoon playing the 4 note ostinato very smoothly while all the tunes weave around it. I'd never heard that so plainly before.
Percussion are really aggressive too.
It really is a great piece. I just wish they had the technology to film the riot with people like Debussy and Ravel there.
We'll have to find a brilliant Petrouchka and Firebird!! You need a great flute player for Petrouchka.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jul 25, 2013 16:04:13 GMT
BTW - Symphonies of Wind Instruments comes with that version of the Rite Israel and that's none too shabby either!! The playing is REALLY precise.
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