Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 8, 2013 20:22:25 GMT
I have heard every album from Eminem.
I first heard him on Radio 4 where they were discussing rap, it's content and the way the words are put together with regards to word play etc.
The song they discussed in great detail was about him not wanting to hurt his Mamma but he was cleaning out his closet!! It cracked me up since it is funny. That started me off listening to all of his albums.
The biggest problem with it, of course, is the foul language. Also a great deal of the subject matter revolves around guns, drugs, sex and with Eminem in particular, his alter egos and self-parody.
I listened to his new album today and it finds him in really good form. I do take his stuff with a huge pinch of salt but the first track shows him finding an alter ego and killing it with a gun. It's actually quite dramatic and he acts out his building anger extremely well.
At the end of the album, he's apologising to his Mother!!
Some of the word play is really quite stunning and the sheer speed of what he does is dazzling. There's no doubt that he has a talent as a 'word knitter' but unfortunately, a lot of the content is quite gruesome.
This album shows him imo at his best because a lot of it is tongue in cheek and he does have a razor sharp sense of humour. He has changed direction in this album; it has elements of rock contained within it so at times, it almost sounds like a 'hybrid' genre.
I wonder whether rap is beginning to mature via Eminem, although I do have difficulty with the cars language and crucified he so often demonstrates. It's a pity because when he's on form, he shows a massive amount of talent for words.
The album is called 'The Marshall Mathers LP2'. Too much volume and compression and into distortion in places, but it has some interesting ideas if you can get over the nasty stuff!! It came out on Monday I think.
With this kind of content, HEADPHONES ARE A MUST. You really couldn't play this on speakers without causing offence.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2013 20:39:51 GMT
i would rather pull my own teeth out , than listen to any (C)rap. even with "beer ears" at full magnification.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 8, 2013 21:10:24 GMT
I listen to everything .......... once. Including headphones (remember my beloved Fanny Wang's?) Even Sting used a French female rapper on one of his albums. It will eventually merge into mainstream pop but in a less crass form. Rather than listen to the (lack of) hi fi quality, I focus more on the word tricks being demonstrated and Eminem does have a skill for playing around with words at lightening speeds.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 8, 2013 21:52:26 GMT
i would rather pull my own teeth out , than listen to any (C)rap. even with "beer ears" at full magnification. + 1 from me too - there's music and there's music and there's noise - noise pretending to be music is wrong on all fronts IMO. And I don't ever see it becoming more mainstream than it is at the moment (hope not, anyway ). IMO it's appeal is far too narrow to be anything more than a very minor niche market. Unintelligible muttering, 'singing' or shouting does not have much of a track record in popular music with good reason. Sorry Ian . Dave.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 8, 2013 22:27:41 GMT
I think you guys have the wrong impression. I'm not a rap fan at all. However, part of my work requires me to be 'open' to ideas which involves everything without prejudice.
I'm sure that many of you don't like 20th century orchestral music, but because it's orchestral, it enjoys its 'niche' just because it's orchestral. It doesn't bring on the strong opposing reactions seen in both of you. Instead, there is NO reaction.
However, rap brings out a strong reaction...... and there lies its strength. It is written with the intention of stirring a reaction, much like Frank Zappa did in the 70s and 80s. Punk stuff did the same ..... and early electronic music in the pop industry!! It was never going to work according to the critics.
Zappa is generally held as a reactionary kind of genius nowadays. What he did with regards to lyrics was very similar to Eminem.
However, I remain open to all and every type of music. At least for one listen. I never avoid. I experience it and try to understand what is going on.
When Mozart was alive, many criticised his music for having 'too many notes'. Stravinsky's Rite of Spring caused a punch up at the first performance.
I remember reactions to John Zorn' s extreme early experiments in jazz. Many hated it.
In answer to 'noise' Dave, I'd ask where is the distinction between noise and music? Musicians have fought with that one all through the twentieth century. Where does noise take over from Music.
Many define music as a pretty noise. Or organised sound. If it's organised and pretty, then it's music. However, it can be organised and ugly and still liked. How ugly can it be before it constitutes noise? Where is the barrier that many seem to define and anything past that line is (c)rap?
It's complex, but without (c)rap, the good stuff might not emerge later in the development of musical ideas.
The list goes on and on and whether hi fi guys or musicians hate it ...... some of the ideas do stick.
Rap has begun to appear in mainstream pop and these guys are the first which is why I listen to it. (And everything else that's available)
Hi fi connoisseurs aren't the target audience in any case since you would be regarded as elitists by the target audience for someone like Eminem. In order to understand what he's describing, you need to know where it comes from and the background of the people. Then you can see that Eminem's histrionics, language, situations and his parodies are actually true low life American culture based.
For someone so low life based, he has an enormous skill for word play.
I was more interested in the reaction to my post more than the music tbh.
We're not always as open as we'd like to think sometimes. Music can be so compartmentalised by the people who listen to it or don't listen to it? Even once on a download or stream.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 8, 2013 23:03:50 GMT
I guess that's one area (amongst others ) where we differ Ian. I respect your open mindedness about listening (at least once) as contributing to your abilities to earn a living - fortunately it does not apply to me. Having said that, like you I have listened to quite a bit of rap, mostly unintentionally, and formed the opinion that not only is it not for me, it cannot be classified as music in my book. Music for me must predominantly be enjoyable, (rap ain't), musical, (rap ain't and therefore cannot be called 'music' but that is semantics), melodic and lyrical also helps and also does not apply to rap. The sooner it goes the way of punk and other such 'garbage' the better. Sorry, too old to change now and no wish to . FWIW I also regard some ancient 'classical' stuff with the same disdain - I must be very MoR . Dave.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 9, 2013 11:56:06 GMT
The first track on this album is called, 'Bad Guy' and its over 7 minutes of him ranting and losing his temper about one of his 'alter egos'.
He starts relatively calm and plans what he's going to do. Then he describes how he takes his 'alter ego' away in the back of the car and drives off a bridge with him in the boot!! The minute the car goes off the bridge, some strings enter the mix adding a sense of real sadness at what he's done along with his seething anger at the character.
He uses some odd recording techniques as well. One I have heard on a Madonna album. (Yes, I've also heard all of hers) The technique is suddenly muting all sound for a split second which breaks the mix right up and adds a stutter to the sound. Another trick he uses is a digital stutter on his voice which really works well with that anger he portrays.
Another particular Eminem characteristic which is what I really like about his phrasing is how he says words with emphasis in a different place to where you would normally speak, which creates 'cross rhythms' in his speech patterns with the beat of the music. That really adds strong tension into the mix. Michael Jackson has tried this as well, but nowhere near as much and emphasised as Eminem does it. He also makes sudden loud syllables on the offbeat on occasions which works really well.
I'm not a rap fan but Eminem is changing what rap does in this album. It's moving slightly away from the typical uneducated and nasty sounds that we hear from so many black rappers. IMO, Eminem is perhaps more intelligent in what he does and I have a feeling that he is a great actor, portraying these really nasty characters and using the kind of thoughts and language that they use, but it's not him. I feel that he has the potential to change how we view rap music from what you guys feel about it and this may be the start.
Another beautiful rap is on The Imagined Village first album. It's a folk album and a black British poet.... forget his name .... Zapheria is it? He speaks this wonderful rap over folk drones and the story (what he's actually saying) is really powerful to say the least.
IMO it has a place as an art form in spite of what critics say about it. The problem is that the good ones are extremely rare since it is a kind of poetry which has to scan in sometimes quite unusual and clever ways.
Eminem is an expert at moulding the language and creating tension and emphasis in what he says in one of the most dramatic ways I've heard. Streets ahead of the ignorant ghetto types that this stuff is normally associated with. He's more intelligent and does it through personas that he's invented for the purpose. (Much like Frank Zappa did) They hide behind their personas.
On Eminem's 7 minute track, it's actually quite difficult to keep up with the speed of the rapping and lock on to what he's saying. The humour, sarcasm and anger goes at lightening speed, but once you lock in, you see what a sad story this is and makes you hope that there really aren't too many people out there like this!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 18:51:44 GMT
where did i put them pliers?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 18:53:45 GMT
btw a rap interlude in a song is even more annoying than a full rap. it catches me out every time. at least with a full rap "thing" you can switch off at the start.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 9, 2013 20:57:13 GMT
What you need is a spur feeding your system and some dr dre headphones. Makes all the difference!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 21:22:04 GMT
Dr.Dre headphones!! dont know if Frans has done a filter for those!? no matter i found one on another site.........
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2013 21:56:37 GMT
What you need is a spur feeding your system and some dr dre headphones. Makes all the difference! No Ian, please allow me to correct you - you may well be right regarding the dr. dre cans but spurs is no good - what you want is a radial, preferably with it's own consumer unit - bin there and got the T shirt - don't think I've altogether convinced Frans but I have convinced myself . See my next post for something else that I'd be interested in Frans's (and anybody else's) opinion on - again, I've convinced myself . Yet more target practice for some of you maybe . All good fun, innit? Dave.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 10, 2013 8:42:04 GMT
Well Dave, I set up an alternative target so giving people choice of who to go for ........
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 22:48:00 GMT
Whilst I don't particularly like hip-hop/rap in any form, I have a guilty secret!
I don't mind Eminem, and have 2 or 3 of his albums. As Ian has mentioned in a couple of his posts, what I like about him is his very clever use of words and wordplay. In my opinion this is what marked him out as different from the start. He was so different from the usual run-of-the-mill rappers who went on about "drugs-cars-money-sex-guns".
BORING-BORING-BORING-BORING
I feel he is unfairly run down because of the genre he works in. He is clearly a very clever lyricist.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 13, 2013 6:10:24 GMT
Aha ....... That's exactly what I was getting at!! This new album has a few new ideas in what is going on in the backing and is perhaps starting to change the direction of a genre that has had problems; mainly due to the crassness and simplicity of most of the performers who have nothing new to say. One crass rap I heard was 'See you when I get there'. It uses the old Palchelbel cannon c g a e f c f g .... as a bass line while this really poor quality rapper mumbles above. Awful. Eminem has this kind of 'spark' in him where he turns from calm to really quite nasty with this lightening sense of humour at the same time, plus the sarcasm. He shows just how fast he can rap as well on one of the numbers. It's ridiculously fast and some very clever word plays and twists in the rhythms that he uses. He does stand out and one day, May produce something top notch. He's in his 40's now, I think so time is passing, but imo, this recent album is one of his better ones. I think for 'hi fi' types, tradition plays a part in the hatred of rap. I remember in the 80's, the favoured genre for hi fi people was this middle of the road type jazz. I found it boring as he'll but it was beautifully recorded. People like Larry Carlton. Inoffensive music which I thought was great for cafes. The problem with rap is the subject material, who it's aimed at, the language and the normally very poor quality of the recordings!! Doesn't make good material for your average hi fi person. Also .... I guess I don't get easily shocked or offended by it!!
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