Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 30, 2013 8:26:53 GMT
A term often used with each side firing with all guns ablazing!! Solderdude has put a little test in to see whether you are a cowboy or an Indian here: diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/about/subjectivist-objectivist-or-intermediativist/It's a bit of fun with some rather nice links to sites that may interest you according to your score. I thought I was a subjective person though and came out pretty objective!! I guess for me, common sense prevails but I'm willing to be swayed..... I feel as though I've been to alcoholics anonymous and been cured now.
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Post by imagemaker18 on Mar 31, 2013 22:45:43 GMT
I scored 3. I guess I am an opinionated objectivist with slight subjectivist tendencies, whatever that means!?!? I believe tubes are more musical, and well worth the trouble in some amplifiers. Also, I believe some components do benefit from burning-in, such as the forming of electrolytic capacitors (I know from experience that if left idle for lengthy periods, they do dry out and have to be replaced), the mechanical break- in of headphones, not so much for the ortho type, but the cone type. I am not sure, but perhaps tubes may benefit from burning-in as well. Also, not sure about OpAmps and other ICs either, especially those mounted on heat sinks. And, it has been my experience to see improvements in modding of off-the-shelf items, and headphones, such as the T40/T50RP are some examples. Perhaps my diagnosis is abnormal musical lust mixed up with electronic neurotic deviations!?!? ;D
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dicky
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Post by dicky on Apr 1, 2013 4:25:02 GMT
I scored a 4. It was the burn in question that makes me more subjective. However, I think the burn-in that I hear is just me getting used to the sound of the equipment.
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Post by clausdk on Apr 1, 2013 9:13:06 GMT
I am all over the place, neither Cowboy or Indian, I guess I am a Viking, lets meet at Hastings .. ..
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Post by valveheid on Apr 1, 2013 19:35:20 GMT
7 for me, subjectivist I am then!
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Javier
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Digital bytes
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Post by Javier on Apr 1, 2013 22:47:10 GMT
Took the test and got a whoooping 0!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 3:34:40 GMT
I'm number 8. Yeah, prosperous number for the Chinese. But I don't read much reviews or measurements nowadays. Used to. I only trust my unwaxed ears and good Live music mix references having matured with age and wisdom. Err, does this meana I will be banned here for writing that out loud? I only know what is buddy like as I was from the bloody army before. I also only know Leave No Men Behind too. To heck with Subjective/Objective. Just enjoy the hobby and music, can't we? Btw, you can still write to me on both accounts. I'm still your buddy, right? But I wouldn't be at OK Corral kind of thing.
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solderdude
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measureutternutter
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Post by solderdude on Jun 1, 2013 8:23:43 GMT
Only people out to disrupt or with agenda's other than enjoying the hobby and music will be banned. Discussions are good as long as they stay civilised .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 9:19:01 GMT
Only people out to disrupt or with agenda's other than enjoying the hobby and music will be banned. Righto, brother Frans. Well written! I have always swear by that in all forums for all good people to enjoy the forums. I always try to unite instead of disrupt. We are fellow civilised people of this beautiful planet.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 1, 2013 9:41:16 GMT
Funny thing is Chong, that I mostly use my ears to judge gear but if I have some tech info, it's a really good pointer and to take no notice of most of it is kind of 'blind'. If I see something amiss with figures, I do listen to try and judge whether it's important to the ears. The headphone graphs at HE have recently been so useful to me in that I have gone through many headphones in order to find out how some things actually get ''masked' by other things. I think figures are an important part of serious reviewing. So listening. The two sit very closely together and any talk of arguments over which side you're on is a remnant from the past. I don't like the 'guru' approach to hi do but I also don't like the 'cold professor' approach. I guess that makes me a 'subjonctionist'.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 10:13:53 GMT
I don't like the 'guru' approach to hi do but I also don't like the 'cold professor' approach. Me too. That's why my reference is Live music mix (preferably unamplified) nowadays with my brain telling me what is right or less right. There is no longer such a thing as wrong but less right. No guru or techie stuff in that approach but the Truth and Nothing but the Truth. I used to read many hifi mags from Hifi News, with all the measurements as well as subjective reviews, to Absolute Sound, purely subjective. Now no longer. We surely must try our best to recreate the Live unamplified (preferably)experience for sure and no amount of objectivity can settle that for sure when guitarists are using valve amps for the "best" sound for most and studio techniques using the voice filter to make a more pleasant vocal sound against the purist approach and others. You should know better than us of all the non purist and technically "objectional" techniques (as opposed to lowest distortion and S/N in the pure technical specs) like mixer used by the sound engineers for the best sound. Surely the distortion, phase and noise will increase but the experience is in another domain all in all. I will always go for the best experience over pure best technical specs anytime. My unwaxed ears and brain tell me so.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 8, 2013 11:27:38 GMT
I agree that getting the 'live' feel/experience on our recordings is a good thing to have Chong, but the reality of doing that is very difficult.
Just because many musicians choose valves for their amps doesn't mean valves are closer or better to the live experience either. They tend to use valves as a tone control, so in effect, colour the sound of their guitar with them, rather than use them for any hi fi purpose.
I was rather interested in what Israel was saying about the O2 v the Sunrise. Of course, we'd both left out the obvious - ss and tube. Frans pointed that out and once he had described what was going on, I took another listen and that IS what is happening really. In the end, it's just a preference but not an accuracy thing.
If the guitarist uses a tube in his amp for the sound, then it's a simple matter of taking that sound and using it in recordings as long as no DI is involved. (Which unfortunately, some engineers prefer) However, we're colouring it a second time by placing another tube in the path on play back as well as everything else.
What we hear live is often a mixture. For instance, I play synths directly into a mixer with no tubes in the way, whereas, as you say, the guitarist may well use some kind of amp with a tube. However, the audience is hearing both a more 'digitised' sound from me and and a fat tube sound from the guitar. (and/or bass)That can create some interesting contrasts between the two actually. I love to play solos over a fat wedge of bass and guitar coming from tubes, but they also like to switch to a tubeless sound for other things.
If you listen to Thomas Dolby live, with guitarists and bass (When he's not doing his rather odd 'pub' performances of him on his own with a drum machine), you'll find the Bass and guitar have this very big tubey sound while he cuts through. It works well.
Musicians tend to use tubes for their effect on the sound, not for purity.
To get a live sound is difficult since most albums are recorded with the players performing separately and then each sound is mixed and eq'd remotely. Therefore, by nature, it really isn't like playing live.
If you placed a band together in the studio, then you'd get a live sound, but the resulting recording would be a mess of sound along with the live errors that musicians make.
What you really want is the 'cleanness' of the studio sound with the 'liveness' of the band. And there is the biggest problem in recording.
In live shows now, bands strive to make their sound as close to the CD recorded sound as they can since that's what their audience knows. However, it can be very disappointing live after hearing such a clear representation of the band on a recording.
A recording is just a 'flat' picture of the sound and some people like different tone colours to others I guess.
Interestingly, this question of subjective listening is and always has been a slight problem for me. While ultimately, yes, it is just what you think, listening to my modded T40 has taught me that it's not always what you 'think' is right is in fact 'right.
On the face of it, many would prefer the more 'flashy' sound of something else. (HD681 for instance or DT990) Yes, they are impressive and they are entertaining and sound really good.
However, when it comes to reviewing gear and judging how good it is, I now instantly reach for the T40. The reason being, it may not be as flashy sounding on the face of it, but the sound is basically why I'd say is 'right'. I accept that one as being a reference and now use it the most. Others I use for convenience or to colour a crap recording. If I'm really honest, that's what I think tubes are good at. They do actually superimpose their own signature on top of the recording - which isn't wrong or anything, but let's say, 'less accurate' to the original recording.
That's also why I think Jeremy should have got stuck into the CHAMP. Configurable SS would have been the business imo, although I really love and use the Horizon all of the time!!
Also, I don't believe that people should be totally subjective or totally Objective. That's nuts. The reality is that that both sides do a bit of both. Don't tell me that you would listen to an amp or whatever and judge purely on what you hear? That is a dangerous route to go. The big surprise for me was the Bravo amps. Loved their sound but got a shock when Frans found the level of crosstalk. Much later, with that knowledge..... yes, it was there all of the time. So is that a good or a bad amp? I liked the sound but started to notice the distortions once pointed out to me. Equally, I KNOW that Frans would measure gear and ultimately test it on his ears as well.
So there should really be no arguments between the two camps in effect.
I do think there are many unexplained things in audio but it would be nice to find out the reasons why or why not rather than blindly make bold statements that in ten years could be laughed at. We've had a few of those over the past 30 years for sure.
Here's a true story that's linked:-
When I was a kid, I used to play in an old tudor house (1500 - 1600). It was derelict and falling down. One day, I heard a noise upstairs so I bloody ran for it. (with my mate) I got out onto the road and when I looked back as I walked away from the house (as if it wasn't me) a lady with red hair was in the attic window of that house. She was wearing a tudor costume and she waved at me.
I have been convinced that ghosts are real for the whole of my life.
I went to see my Mum in hospital recently because she was struck down with a temporal arteritis. She mentioned to me some weird guy she know when I was a kid. He wore womens' clothes and a red wig. He was thrown out of his flat and he moved all of his gear into an old broken down house.
I become suddenly objective!!!! Here was my proof that ghosts perhaps don't exist.
............ until my daughter recently was calling out to Grandad in our garden a couple of weeks ago, convinced that he was standing by some bushes. She also saw him in our kitchen!!
Now I'm back to voodoo again...... with a touch of Objectvity. There's room for doubt and there's room for positive proof. Both should exist together and it's not healthy if they don't.
That was a long reply!!!!! (Phew)
Sorry I took so long to reply as well, I was having a little think about it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2013 17:00:58 GMT
I agree that getting the 'live' feel/experience on our recordings is a good thing to have Chong, but the reality of doing that is very difficult. I understand and that's why it's the reference for me to break all boundaries. I'm really not bother whether it's distortion or even the bloody studio or concert hall rattling or resonating. As long as it's there, we should hear it like that Live covering the "purity" with the wholesome and full body "blast" of Live music. I'm sure everytime after we go to a good and well engineered concert (meaning least distortion and resonances), we will not want to turn on our stereo, yeah, price no object too, after we go hiome or fall in depression over how far our stereos are from Live. Do you fall into a "depression" of that nature too when you compared Live with your HP gears or even your mega bucks stereo at home in your reviews? In the end, it's just a preference but not an accuracy thing. Where in the world has most subjectivists point to technical accuracy in all those "death penalty battlefields"? It's alwasy all about the experience hopefully towards Live. Yechnaical accurcay and Live accuracy is 2 entirely different breeds. Most of the musicians are talking more like subjectivists as they are more relating to the Live experience rather than technical accuracy. Yeah, pro guitarists use valve amps, even studio engineers alter voice thru dsp to make the experience more full monty. I wonder you as a pro musician is talking more to which direction? Technical accuracy or Live experience accuracy? Btw, don't get me wrong I'm s step in both camps. Just more Live experience accuracy (Zen) than technical accuracy (Tech). I don't get involve in OK Corral kind of things as there simply is no right or wrong but righter. Like I had written many times, time and again now, I will always go for that Live experience accuracy over technical accuray any time as my middle age ears still tell me so. For instance, I play synths directly into a mixer with no tubes in the way, whereas, as you say, the guitarist may well use some kind of amp with a tube. However, the audience is hearing both a more 'digitised' sound from me and and a fat tube sound from the guitar. (and/or bass)That can create some interesting contrasts between the two actually. I love to play solos over a fat wedge of bass and guitar coming from tubes, but they also like to switch to a tubeless sound for other things. Then have you try playing your synth into a hyrbid / tube amp? It may even sound better. I just don't know and only you can tell us more as you have all the electronics on hand to try from your engineering buddies in the studios. Musicians tend to use tubes for their effect on the sound, not for purity. Isn't this what it's all about? Live accuracy for the experience with most "Live" musicians preferring the tube effect, whether more or less accurate. This is already proving to us something about the real music biz and how people at the highest level of listening at the pro musical scale hear things. It's somethingn like voting. More votes mean more righter for the said or written, right? I always have no problem with voting as it does tell me whether I'm more or less righter in any things I do to make the final decision that can affect everybody and even the company I work for. Of course, unless there is a voting bias like in Aung San Suu Kyi's case and well known in Brit as her husband was a Brit researcher and professor. Btw, her hubby died of cancer as is always appearing in this forum and the other. What you really want is the 'cleanness' of the studio sound with the 'liveness' of the band. And there is the biggest problem in recording. The liveness I agree but not the "cleanness" as every studio sound different no mater what technical acoustics treatment, electronic or mechanical, is applied. So how can we write it's "clean" . If it's "clean" every studios, as measured by the engineers, should sound the same. I can bet the engineers will measure almost the same based on current terminologies. But the sound the same? I don't think so. We will never have that "cleanness" due to resonances. As, long as there is mass and energy there will be resonances, no matter how minute, to change the "cleanness" and "sound" of the studios. In live shows now, bands strive to make their sound as close to the CD recorded sound as they can since that's what their audience knows. However, it can be very disappointing live after hearing such a clear representation of the band on a recording. I think the engineers are making the biggest mistake there as then the experience is no longer being talked about. People pay for the whole good experience and not for the PITA tickets, just like the pro guitarists' prefer tube amps. Interestingly, this question of subjective listening is and always has been a slight problem for me. While ultimately, yes, it is just what you think, listening to my modded T40 has taught me that it's not always what you 'think' is right is in fact 'right. That's is why I don't agree not to EQ. If Music Is the Food of Senses, Play On to that tune as long as it's not altered beyond recognition. EQ does contribute to all the distortions and whatever in the engineers' terminologies but what are we having for the Live experience? I think you still prefer to pick that modded T40 up as it sounded closest to what your every ears are telling it should be about from the Live experience. However, when it comes to reviewing gear and judging how good it is, I now instantly reach for the T40. The reason being, it may not be as flashy sounding on the face of it, but the sound is basically why I'd say is 'right'. I accept that one as being a reference and now use it the most. Oh, we cannot lie to our ears, can we? Also, I don't believe that people should be totally subjective or totally Objective. That's nuts. The reality is that that both sides do a bit of both. Don't tell me that you would listen to an amp or whatever and judge purely on what you hear? That is a dangerous route to go. The big surprise for me was the Bravo amps. Loved their sound but got a shock when Frans found the level of crosstalk. Much later, with that knowledge..... yes, it was there all of the time. So is that a good or a bad amp? I liked the sound but started to notice the distortions once pointed out to me. Equally, I KNOW that Frans would measure gear and ultimately test it on his ears as well. Agreed and that's why I'm in a "safe" position ZenTech. Oh, Frans does listen ok but only he doesn't agree to what he hears except his instruments. Or also perhaps he doesn't listen like us golden or rabbit ears kind. So there should really be no arguments between the two camps in effect. I have been writting this all along. Two different facebooks of the proposition, one from the technical accuracy side and the other from the Live experience accuracy side. So finally stop being objectivists or subkectivists and just enjoy the music like the Rabbit, who doesn't care much on this except the music, as well as the hobby. I do think there are many unexplained things in audio but it would be nice to find out the reasons why or why not rather than blindly make bold statements that in ten years could be laughed at. We've had a few of those over the past 30 years for sure. Ah, you are beginning to play the role of Captain Kirk. Aye, aye, sir ............ Salute. Here's a true story that's linked:- So you listened to Dave's True Story? Nice, eh?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 8, 2013 17:46:59 GMT
I haven't heard Dave's story.... not a ghost story is it?
Anyway Chong, in the end, it doesn't matter what you're listening on as long as you like it. Frans gets a lot of stick about being a so called, 'objectivist' but I KNOW that he listens as well. Just the same as subjectivists.
Room for both tilts. What I don't like about audio though is how it seems to split people on forums. If you hear something that I don't, then great. Even if it's a cable that's 2 inches long compared to four inches.
I really doesn't bother me in the slightest, but some guys seem to get a real bee in their bonnet about it.
There's no magic, that's for sure and everything must have a reason for it to happen; perhaps some just aren't easily explained but one day .....
you never know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2013 13:13:44 GMT
I haven't heard Dave's story.... not a ghost story is it? No, no, this: Samples: Anyway Chong, in the end, it doesn't matter what you're listening on as long as you like it. Frans gets a lot of stick about being a so called, 'objectivist' but I KNOW that he listens as well. Just the same as subjectivists. Room for both tilts. What I don't like about audio though is how it seems to split people on forums. If you hear something that I don't, then great. Even if it's a cable that's 2 inches long compared to four inches. I really doesn't bother me in the slightest, but some guys seem to get a real bee in their bonnet about it. There's no magic, that's for sure and everything must have a reason for it to happen; perhaps some just aren't easily explained but one day ..... you never know. I'm enjoying Dave's True Story now. Pardon me, what Objectivity or Subjectivity. I only breath music now ........
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