Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 8, 2014 10:01:03 GMT
I have the M1000 on the way now to try. It'll be interesting to compare with the M2000.
Longer listening shows the M2000 to be very sensitive to low power sources. I quite like it for mobile stuff except for the damned lead which is too long. Can't find a replacement cable anywhere because:
a) It's a stereo splitter to two mono jacks that go into the earcups. b) The plugs for the earcups are not only 3.5mm but are 'narrow' shouldered (Like Beyer screw fits) so an ordinary 3.5mm plug won't go into the recess.
I've tried all over the place for a 4 foot lead but no-one can supply it with the shoulders of the plug 'rounded off.' I'm loathe to cut the lead that I have in case it's just one strand of copper in there!! Too late if you cut it off.
It's a warm headphone that sounds like a closed headphone is some ways. However, I hear that the closed version sounds like an open headphone!!
At the price that Studiospares sell them at, they are very very good. Nicely built. Come with a case anda set of leather pads. Letaher pads already fitted and the cable comes off so no twists.
Not what I'd say are 'analytical' since the top is warm, but a really nice listen, so I'm looking forward to trying the M1000.
They are indeed, copies of the Fischers under a different name.
This quote concerning the Fischers made me chuckle ....
I had a fellow audiophile over today and he commented that the FA-003's looked cheap but sounded like world class headphones. He estimated that based on sound alone, he would pay $1,000...maybe $1,200 but due to the looks, he would pay no more than $500.
and another
Now I understand why these are being compared to DT880 and HD650 - yes they are really that good.. Definitely took me some time to realize that though - burn in seems to improve these a lot.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 9, 2014 8:33:21 GMT
So..... a bit of delving. These headphones are OEM's and are made in many guises (as Frans showed earlier). That means the same headphone can be bought at very different prices. The cheapest is Australia and imo, it's a bargain buy. Jaycar, fischer, brainwavz etc get their headphones from taiwanese company called yoga. Those wooden headphones are from chinese company called esmooth. One of the most common rebranded headphone is fischer audio fa-004. It is originally yoga cd-68. There are cheap rebrands of that headphones such as ace mp68 and maxell retro dj which go for around 15-20usd and more expensive ones such as pro-ject hear it one and razer adaro stereos which are at 100$ price range. Of course it is possible that only the housing is same and drivers would be different or atleast tuned differently but so far I have not heard a single case like that. Pads may change but other than that it's the same headphone with a different brand and a price tag.If you check Jaycar, they sell at a terrific price; £27.25. That includes case and a spare set of leather earpads. A bargain, even with import tax. Same headphone!! I'm checking out the closed version today. The same oem company puts out the Studio 51st headphone that I also quite like as a portable closed headphone. ('Absolutely Extraordinary' headphone from USA) splashurl.com/pzj4xwq
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 9, 2014 14:33:34 GMT
The M1000 is a little better I think. It is a closed headphone but actually sounds slightly more open than the 'open' one!! (M2000) My guess though is that it could veer towards a harsh top end if it goes any further - I'll need to use it more extensively to see how it plays the more 'gritty' tracks.
Bass is super. Slightly above the M2000 but lovely and rounded.
In the UK, these would come to around £130 for them both. A matching pair (in terms of sound) with a closed and open version. Very nice. Plus two sets of leather pads and the build isn't too shabby either. Also with detatchable leads.
Buy them at Jaycar and it'll be half of that, which makes them a very good buy (If the open version is available from them)
They have a sound that is kind of similar to the Senn laid back sound with a 'fruity' bass that actually doesn't overpower at all.
I get this feeling about the treble which goes in seconds though. It seems strange if you go from another headphone straight to it, but you quickly adjust and just don't notice anything. I mean within less than a minute ..... very strange.
It's as though something is dipped up there (especially the M2000) but I don't think the graph shows it other than a dip in the mids, I think. It's the speed that you adjust to them though and it's literally seconds, and you're completely unaware.
It makes you wonder which headphone has the more accurate treble actually if you quickly swap.
The effect is kind of similar to the Portapro which sounds absolutely fine until you quickly swap and then you notice that it has something amiss. I get a similar feeling with the M2000 but can't decide which sound I prefer - it's just a bit different and I can listen to them all day, without any fatique whatsoever.
At the cost of them (especially from Jaycar) I can't really fault them tbh. The Jaycar price is on a level with a Portapro but these are full blown headphones and sound quite grown up and 'full'!!
It's a pity that they don't supply them with a short lead for portable gear.
The easiest way to describe the sound is laid back, and kind of 'gramophone' like. I like them both.
Edit: The treble thing I'm describing may be the dip between 1 and 2 KHz on the M2000 which is less on the M1000. I just checked the Graphs that Frans posted. They both respond well to an amp too. Bass becomes better defined, but not any bigger.
Chaz, if you're still around these days, these are big versions of the AE51's in terms of sound. (I know that you enjoy the ae51)These two are impressive as a nice little set. (Open and closed with very similar signatures)
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Apr 9, 2014 18:24:26 GMT
The Brainwavz HM5 version seems to come with a short (1.3m) and long (3m) cord.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 9, 2014 18:27:45 GMT
AHAAAAA ...... I'll take a look. It seems daft to sell them without a short cable since it's so easy to swap them!! Thanks Frans.
I like the closed version a lot tbh.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 9, 2014 18:38:22 GMT
Thanks Frans, I ordered a couple.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Apr 9, 2014 18:51:35 GMT
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 9, 2014 20:14:19 GMT
They're all over the place aren't they, Frans? So are the prices!!
They're quite an impressive headphone though, funnily enough. They have a sound that does remind you of the Senn HD600/650. Laid back with nothing really offensive. A bit like having an HD600 that's closed in the case of the M1000.
I slightly prefer the M1000 to the M2000 since it actually sounds slightly more open!! Both are similar though.
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Post by chinook9 on Apr 11, 2014 2:44:58 GMT
Looks like quite a good value. Jaycar indicated I can get their Digitech branded model for $50 plus $20 shipping. Can't order them right now but if Rabbits reports continue to be positive I will consider it.
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 11, 2014 6:09:17 GMT
What is strange about them is how the open version sounds like a closed headphone and the closed is more open!!
I think the biggest problem with the open version is the closed in sound and the treble extension. It is in need of more 'air' in its sound and sounds are not so spread out but more headbound.
The closed one seems better in that respect though. In fact, I prefer the closed one to the open.
The Beyer DT990 sounds really treble focused by comparison. The Studiospares are more like very laid back Senns with regards to the top end. Not as wide on the sound staging.
Now I have found a source for short cables, I will most likely use the closed one with portables more than anything.
The very low price of the Jaycar version is really good value when you consider that it's going at the price of a Portapro. The Sennheiser pads are more expensive!
The sound is quite narrow in soundstage and soft in the treble but then again, you can still hear cymbals etc and it does make you wonder whether other headphones are often stepped up in the treble to make the sound a bit flashy and ' hi fi '. The Studiospare oem's don't sound ramped up or particularly extraordinary. That might be a good thing, but to some, they may seem bland or boring I guess. Some used to describe the AKG601 like that.
I was quite impressed when I recorded some sounds at home and played them back on the Studiospares. They both sounded quite natural.
There is no bloom on mens' voices and it's definitely not sibilant. I can hear 15khz tones on them so they do go up high, but absolutely no emphasis in the treble. They also go low. They could seem quite dark in timbre to some though. Mids are strong - almost focused on the mids tbh as far as spoken voice goes.
I can see why the closed version has been described as a closed hd600. It shares the 'darkness' of the Senns but I'd say the Senns have more 'openness' to them.
I do have problems with soundstage on headphones, so to me, it's not so important. I can't hear sounds any further than my head in a headphone to be honest. I don't think my brain can accept it, knowing that there are two cups strapped to my ears! Occasionally, I get fooled by extreme left and right information, but it's rare. Soundstage on a headphone is difficult for me tbh. Sounds stay firmly planted in my head. I do get more of an impression of depth rather than width though. As long as I'm careful with the volume. If it's too loud, the depth becomes compressed. Again, this sounds weird, but if I imagine sitting in a theatre, (which is quite easy for me) if I adjust the volume, it sounds as though I'm in the upper circle - the sound is really well balanced for a theatre. Put the volume up very slightly and you do 'move' to the stalls. However, get louder and the depth of the soundstage and sense of 'theatre' goes quite compressed. It gets fat and round, but staging collapses for me totally.
In that respect, it's an 'odd' headphone. I can see the closed one being used on location by sound mixers for theatres though. (If it was tougher) however at their low price and ability to change cables in seconds, these could work well in that situation. Since they can be had at somewhere around £243 for 5 of them from Studiospares, then it's not really an issue though. (They sell with discount for more than one). Pads at £7.80 (and they're nice pads), spare leads at £3.90 so it's hardly worth making them, this could be used easily as a theatre monitor since the sound is robust and non piercing so no fatigue and the M1000 isolates quite well.
It's a strange headphone in that I see it more as a tool than a hi fi headphone tbh, but it's not too shabby with hi fi either. The Sony V6 is similar except the treble is way too raised on them for many hi fi tastes.
I like these headphones but in the context of price. They are really good value, but not top notch headphones in terms of sound. It's easy to get carried away, but both of them have the same kind of sound sig:
Quite dark. Not a big sound stage Smooth. No real bloom. No sibilance or splash. Tight grip on head but comfortable.
The sound is kind of 'theatre like'. Almost as though you're listening with heavy curtains around you with no sense of 'reverberation' or 'enhancement'. That's where some may find them boring to listen to I think.
In fact, I'm listening at the moment to (don't laugh) the soundtrack to Frozen at theatre audience level. Not too loud. It really sounds as though they are in a theatre and the string sound is quite realistic in that you hear the top, and there is no added colour 'below' as you can get with some headphones. Some can make strings sound 'boxy' due to something going on below the string sound. These seem to give the string tone, with no real colourations below. However, they really sound 'Theatre like' in that the sound seems heavily damped in the room that they're playing in.
You can get this effect with really good speakers but I'm not sure whether this is just a limitation of the headphone or whether it's a 'clean' reproduction. I do get the same effect on my speakers with this soundtrack, but interestingly, not headphones!! Ie: they sound as though they've recorded in a heavily treated room. (Like with curtains) so there is no real sense of reverberations contained in the primary sound.
I don't know whether you'd get this - but in a theatre, you get string tone with no added depth or bass. It can sound quite thin I guess, and stringy. You kind of get this effect with these headphones and yet there is still quite a fruity bass. Almost like some eq has been adjusted....
My feeling is that they could be improved in the top, but then again, most headphones seem to benefit from some tweaking. At the lower price, these would be worth having a play with to raise top end presence, but I don't mind them as they are. I wouldn't want them to turn sibilant though.
They make a Senn HD650 sound with portables!!
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Post by chinook9 on Apr 12, 2014 4:38:11 GMT
Thank you Rabbit for what I would say is a really descriptive evaluation. I expect that you have very well trained ears based on extensive experience.
I have some experience but I don't listen enough to be able to evaluate as extensively as you do.....and then be able to describe it.
I'll keep reading and look forward to ordering from Jaycar in a week or two.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 12, 2014 6:58:55 GMT
I just talk too much!! The 'experience' thing helps but isn't the be all of headphones. It's far too complex. Also, ears are SO easily fooled as I found out when the Bravo amps came out on the internet. I loved them until Frans pointed out the awful crosstalk, which I totally missed. My excuse is that you needed to have them up pretty high to hear it and I don't tend to play things too loud if I can help it. That's why I haven't gone deaf yet!! The only real way of ensuring that a headphone works well is by both measuring and listening to what they do. Although I'm subjective at heart, the sensible side of me accepts that measurements are very important and only a 'audio fool' ignores them totally. If something 'sounds' better or different, then I do think it's a good idea to try to confirm what is going on by measuring what is happening. After all, so many make big sweeping statements about how 'whatever' is the best thing ever, with absolutely no reference to measurements or comparisons. If the equipment actually IS much better than everything else and you are detecting this by ear, my guess is that measuring gear will normally pick this up with ease. There are quite a lot of people who would say that they hear things that can't be measured ..... however, their own ears are measuring it in some way. There also seem to be quite a few 'discoverers' out there who find a piece of gold hidden under the carpet!! (Later, the gold starts to tarnish though!!!) I enjoy the different 'flavours' of headphones and don't get hung up on accuracy, but then I do like to know what I'm hearing. So for me, I feel like 'piggy in the middle'. I love the subjectivity of listening as a form of hearing test for me, but I also love the accuracy of measurements to either confirm or not, what my ears seem to detect!! The problem however with a headphone is that getting an accurate measurement is quite a feat in itself and even that may not be consistent with everyones' hearing. That's why I guess there is so much variation, but the work that is going on these days with regards to headphones will result (eventually) in a much more consistent listening experience with a bit of luck. Even now, many can't decide on what constitutes a 'flat' headphone and the 'ideal' response is still being mulled over by the likes of Tyll. It seems to change every now and then. I have a pretty flat headphone here actually and even with that, I feel sometimes that the sound can be a bit 'nasal' but then again, that could be my hearing and shape of my ear canal!! Basically, the Studiospares are not what I'd call a hi fi sound. Warm. Ramped down top. Some could find them 'boxy' or 'contained' sounding. Sensitive. Get a short lead if you can. The closed one seems better than the open version in that it has a bit more 'air' in its sound. EDIT: there may be an 'issue' with QC. I have been a little puzzled by the M2000 not sounding as good as the M1000 and this morning, I may have found out why. I was listening to Radio 3, where they played some old mono piano recordings. I straight away noticed that everything seemed slightly to one side and then further listening felt strange in that some frequencies may not be 'centred', so the whole image is mangled depending on what frequency you're hearing most of. (if you see what I mean) It was slight, and I suspected there was something wrong with my ears so I swapped them around and the image moved to the right! So it is the headphone. However, the central image doesn't 'focus' properly so there could be QC issues with them, which is why they are so cheap? The closed one doesn't do this, so it sounds better focused. If the headphone was a magnifying glass, you'd see halos around the edges. (Poor magnifying glass) That's how I feel the M2000 is behaving in sonic terms. Tonally, it's OK; just a bit dark, but the central image doesn't snap well into focus and it's way more noticable on mono sources. So, they may not be a great deal after all. However, I quite enjoy the M1000, although it isn't a neutral headphone to my ears. I checked the Fischer Audio out on Headfi, and a well respected guy reckons they are a closed and very neutral headphone. To me, they roll away at the top and the sound could be more airy but for the low cost, they really aren't bad. The Jaycar site is selling them at around Portapro prices so in that respect, the closed one is a really good buy. Interesting that the DT770 pro (250 ohms) sounds really 'peaky' in comparison to the M1000/M2000. I have become much more aware of sibilance on the Beyers. (also the DT990) I'm keener on the Senn HD650 now!!! Another closed headphone that I have consistently liked is the Audio Technica a900. There is something about its open nature without being overly harsh that I have always liked a lot. It doesn't go quite as deep as some others in the bass so I compare it to one of those really good bookshelf speakers. (No deep bass , but what they do well is really good) The a900 is like that and every time I return to it, I enjoy it a lot tbh. The worst thing about the AT's now though is the price that they sell for. They've gone sky high which is a great pity.
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 14, 2014 8:57:29 GMT
The Brainwavz HM5 version seems to come with a short (1.3m) and long (3m) cord. The company I used - 'MP4 Nation' is based in USA but the leads came from Hong Kong and have already arrived!! Really fast delivery. The M1000 is now a portable blunderbuss for me. It has a better sound than the M2000 which is kind of unfocused by comparison, although I wonder whether there is a fault on the M2000 tbh. Although the M1000 is closed, it actually sounds quite open which is very strange. Definitely worth the asking price at Jaycar. (Pads are really nice and you get 4 of them - 2 on the headphone and 2 spares) I'm wondering whether I can get them onto other headphones for their comfort. (Also to see what they do to the sound) Anyway, MP4 Nation is good and they do the short leads which really should come with the headphone imo.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Apr 14, 2014 9:24:07 GMT
Those pads are often used by modders. I know some have taped them to T50RP's. Do note that pads can affect bass, mids and treble and may do so in a negative way in some areas while giving change (improvement) in other areas.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 14, 2014 13:16:34 GMT
Do note that pads can affect bass, mids and treble and may do so in a negative way in some areas while giving change (improvement) in other areas. Boy, do I remember the DT770 pro with 990 pads. no bass, all tinny!!! Yet, they look so similar.....
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