solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 3, 2015 4:56:20 GMT
It could well be caused by the PCB. Hard to tell for sure as the frequency range where it happened is not really coinciding with the distances. Back reflections will have an effect in another frequency range if they are present.
I have seen these L-R differences in other peoples measurements as well.
Couldn't hear it either and only noticed it on the measurements. Repeated those back them just to cmake sure if I didn't do something wrong.
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Post by c61746961 on Sept 3, 2015 18:14:39 GMT
I own the pair that Solderdude measured. There's a wonkines in the bass / low mids area for sure, it affects imaging depending on music. Once I build a measurement instrument I will attempt to fix it and post my findings.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2015 0:08:44 GMT
I've been lucky then, there's no wonkiness in the set I'm listening to. I know that to Ian, they're just a normal day-to-day workhorse, but I'm loving the comfort, the musicality, and the balanced nature of these phones. If this SQ was built into a sexy, titanium and fancy wood headphone which had been breathed on by audio angels and cost £600, people would rave about them. Although my ones are the 250 ohm version, my Sansa/NX-1 combo gets them going well on many tracks, but I think I'll look out for the 80 ohm version for portable use.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 5, 2015 15:45:18 GMT
The 80 ohm version isn't much more sensitive, Simon. The 250 ohm version is slightly better as well.
I like both the dt150 and 250. The 150 is great for performing into since it doesn't go edgy at life volume, which allows you to play properly without feeling that you have to hold back. You can wear them for hours and use them as a seat!! Some find the treble too recessed, but at life volume, they're great. On hi fi at skinflint volume, they are rolled away.
The 250 is better for playback since it has such a natural sound. Nothing flash, just honest sounding. The 80 ohm version has a slight bass hump in comparison to the 250 ohm version and I think yours might have a better top end too.
I prefer higher impedance on the whole. Less prone to noise and I always get the feeling that they sound better damped. (Stop and start more positively) For me, lower impedance often offers more opportunity for 'bloat.' Big generalisation, I know and if we were on HF, the know alls would jump at me.
So basically, given the choice, I'd go higher .... Even 600 ohms with a nice amp is preferable to me. Subjective fairyland stuff that perhaps Frans might chuckle at I suppose, but in my head, that idea has kind of formed over years of listening to many headphones and I can't lose it!!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 5, 2015 20:53:23 GMT
600 Ohms has advantages over lower impedances. This doesn't have to do with the weight of the voicecoil wires (being thinner) but with the inductance of the voice coil combined with the higher resistance. A 600 Ohm a driver is faster because of this.
There's practical problems as to why you don't see many headphones with much higher impedances though.
The 250 Ohm is better than the 80 Ohm version... at least it is on paper. Never heard an 80 Ohm version.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 5, 2015 21:24:27 GMT
I've heard both together and the 250 ohm did sound slightly better to me. Fraction more clarity in top and less mid bass. Funnily enough, not a massive difference in sensitivity between the two of them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2015 0:20:33 GMT
A while ago in a pm exchange with Frans, I mentioned I was on the lookout for a pre-loved DT-250 and he suggested that all things being equal, I should try to go for the 250/250 rather than the 250/80.
As I said, I love the headphone, and I'm glad I took Frans' advice!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 2:12:11 GMT
Finally got a chance to try the DT-250....and they didn't stay very long. Having owned a couple of other Beyers the build on these took me by surprise, despite what I'd read. If ever there was a headphone without a wow factor it's the DT-250. It looks cheap, it feels cheap and the lazy sods at Beyerdynamic even cheaped out with the yokes and used the same one for both the L/R sides, meaning that the fronts look mismatched (one is solid plastic, the other has a groove in it with the headband slider visible). That said they do seem to be quite robust in fairness though so durability shouldn't be a concern. Comfort is decent but pads are quite small and clamping is reasonably high. Sound wise I didn't really care for them. They are honest sounding I'll give them that. And well balanced but just not engaging enough for me. I couldn't quite pinpoint what it was but there was also something going on in the upper mids or treble that disagreed with me. It wasn't something overtly grating but with anything other than shorter listens I found them starting to become a bit fatiguing. Don't mean to sound overly negative as I can appreciate why others rate them. Just not for me but at least I got to tick off the last headphone on my current bucket list. No new arrivals for a while and I'm going to enjoy what I have
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 23, 2016 7:20:08 GMT
I smiled reading that Mark. It sounds like you've had a bad day!!
I think that it can sound a bit underwhelming with not a lot standing out. Flat headphones aren't for everyone and the dt250 gets quite close which is why there's not much to be said about the sound I guess. I always found the pads quite hard, especially with the clamping force, but they're not designed for long periods of wearing them.
One thing that always puzzled me about them is that they sit in between portable and home headphones. Too high impedance and heavy lead for portable and yet a bit small to sit too long at home.
They're ok in working situations but imo, not really what I'd call a home or portable headphone. Neither one nor the other and I think that's why some might find it difficult to keep them. (Although the Sony v6 and mdr7507 brigade stick with those)
Perhaps just the lower impedance of the Sony makes them more acceptable plus the fact that they're colourful and not flat!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jan 23, 2016 8:45:22 GMT
These are monitoring headphones that are tonally balanced. Excellent for judging a final mix on it or hearing what the mic actually picked up when you can't use monitors.
That said (they are professional monitors and not hifi phones) together with the HD600 they are the most tonally balanced ones out there. When not including Dan's ETHER that is.
I found the highs to be not as well refined as those of the HD650 (on Kameleon) yet tonally these sound about the same. These Beyers are a lot cheaper though, something has got to give.
The Beyers aren't really suited for portable use (they are monitors after all) and indeed they have quite some clamping force as well. But this too is a great asset for a monitoring headphone.
It's a headphone one has to get used to, certainly when coming from the king of dark-sound (Nighthawk) as a much used reference.
Indeed, just like some other headphones out there, it's not one that every one likes but IS tonally balanced. If one wants tonally balanced but with lacking subbas the HD600 is a more hifi-choice. Should one look for an end-game headphone that can be used directly from portable gear the ETHER is the only logical choice. Bass SQ seems to have been improved since I last heard one. It was my only gripe (and perhaps the slight 'peaky' treble with poor recordings)
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 23, 2016 9:16:10 GMT
Where they really come into their own (if you like a flat eq) is semi portable. If you go away a lot and take a good portable amp, they really work well as a good listening headphone. I have read that QC can be an issue with them though and some have receieved them with mismatched cups.
Believe it or not, mismatches 'can' be hard to hear. Sometimes one cup isn't matched in just one frequency or area so you kind of 'feel' that something is a bit odd about them.
Recently, I had a k545 sent to me which after a while, I felt something was 'off'. It was originally the imaging wasn't right and then it was. Mens' voices focused in the middle of the headphone but womens' went a bit vague and I couldn't quite pinpoint where they were in the soundstage. It turned out to be badly matched drivers, since I had another pair here to compare with. They focused dead centre but the duff ones just sounded vague. Tonally correct but no sense of stereo image at certain frequencies.
That can happen with the Beyers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 13:14:16 GMT
Good observations. Sorry if I sounded a bit down on them - you are right Ian it wasn't the best of days so maybe that came through a bit too much!!
That said I don't think it's a headphone I'd grow to love for a number of reasons you both mentioned.
I'd actually been listening to the DT990 mainly for the last week or so, so don't think the NH was really a factor at all.
I very much enjoyed the HD600 when I had one and the lack of sub-bass was my only real gripe with it. The DT-250 by comparison feels a little more 'austere' and bit less refined. As Frans notes the DT-250 are a lot cheaper though.
The bass on these was actually really rather good with decent depth and punch. Mids were fine too but the treble for me was the bit I felt let them down. Just a bit rough sounding to my ears and I'm not sure any amount of head time would have changed that.
It's a funny headphone because it's quite possibly as narrow sounding a closed back as I've heard. The sound rarely seemed to extend beyond both ears and yet it didn't feel in the least boxy.
For shorter listens the design makes more sense and I think the clamping force would be beneficial for a professional working in the field or studio.
I didn't detect any obvious mismatch issues and for me the reason they didn't gel was more down to tuning than anything else. I did experience a driver mismatch with the HE-560 and like your K545 the male vocals were spot on. If I mouthed along it almost felt like I was delivering the lines myself. Play something with a female vocal though and everything went to pot. At times it felt like the vocal was literally being delivered out of my left nostril or from behind my left eye socket....was quite surreal. After a day or two it got to the point where I wondered if I'd developed a serious hearing problem literally overnight but fortunately when the dealer tried them they agreed the drivers were all over the place.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 23, 2016 13:20:59 GMT
In my case, comparing it with my other k545 really showed that there was a fault. It was weird because it sounded fine tonally but some sounds didn't seem to come from anywhere in particular, depending on the pitch.
Poano was mental. Notes moved to different places and I felt that the engineer must have had a brainstorm!!
The Sony V6 is another love/hate headphone. Same kind of shape but less clamp. Very toppy but brilliant for hiss, noise, sock rustles, the lot. Also quite a healthy mid bass.
I don't tend to use the DT250 that much because of comfort. In fact, I use the DT770 pro quite a lot if I want isolation. Not exactly flat though, but very entertaining. Makes a good set with the dt990!!
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Post by c61746961 on Feb 1, 2016 17:00:38 GMT
So I got the DT250 back from my father and started studying the imbalance behavior, this is stock: It sounds like that as well. I switched the pads and foams around and saw no difference, then I took them out and measured the pad-less baffle with a leaky seal: Yeah, I don't think the drivers are the culprit, it has to do with pressurization in the cup chambers, I tried reducing the volume in the right cup and stuffing the cups with different amounts of acoustic fiber to no avail. I'm still wondering where the fix lies, but I'm sure it's fixable.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Feb 1, 2016 19:46:52 GMT
When you swap the drivers only (so the left one in the right cup) does the difference remain the same ? Perhaps one of the cups 'leaks' where wires run or via the cable entry ?
When I had the headphone here it was only there for a few hours along with a lot of other headphones that had to be measured. Would have been interesting to find out why it differed between channels. It was only 2dB max though. No idea why it seems to be well over 5dB now.
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