Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 24, 2013 16:09:24 GMT
Tyll did a test a long time ago and I am impressed.
Thing is, rigged or for real? I'm not sure if they change much myself but he is obviously picking them out.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Apr 24, 2013 20:42:34 GMT
For some headphones 'burn in' is real (I know it to be so with HD681) in other cases it might be pads compressing or 'false memory'. Getting used to the sound is another reason some call 'burn-in' when it is more 'brain-in' Also when one buys a HP and tries it out directly during the day (quick listen) and is not impressed. Later that day (evening), when the hearing has improved, we listen again and presto ...
Burn in is very hard to tell if you do not have 2 headphones at hand one new and one 'being burned in' and a blindfold so you don't know which is put on by someone else (as in Tyll's video)
Problem there is there is also something as production spread meaning they do not sound exactly the same. A way around that would be to do the test above with 2 new ones and repeat it later with one that has been 'burned-in' and the other one fresh.
In the end... burn in IS real for some headphones, less for others if any at all. The second question is how can one be sure the sound has changed over ...( x time) when audible memory is quite flawed.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 24, 2013 21:09:28 GMT
Burn in is reported so often on sites when there are a multitude of reasons why it's heard. As you say, Frans, pads deflating, head/ears adjust, mood changes etc.
I've never been absolutely convinced about headphones changing until i heard the same headphone (as you know). It was dramatically different within 30 minutes of playing. I thought I had a duff headphone and suddenly, I put it back on after 30 minutes of playing and it had developed bass. I was really surprised by that but it did make me feel that perhaps headphones are no way as consistent as we think. Even more now after you measured the T40/50 cups.
The first HD681 I got was fine from the start and the second was awful for 30 minutes. Therefore it makes you wonder how they come out of the factory and whether the makers actually factor in a 'break in' and so make them with this in mind. If they do, how do they know how much the changes will be?
I suspect they don't and my Superlux was a bit flukey.
After seeing Tyll (I do like him a lot and wish he'd appear here) perform his little demo on the video, I looked around for other reports of break in and they're ALL positive outcomes. However, some report a bass becoming tamed and more in control, while others (on other headphones) report the bass developing and becoming 'fuller'.
So break in seems to adjust both ways? No consistency.
I have had two headphones break in (or rather, break down) Both were Portapros and I only noticed when I got a new one and compared. The old ones had become dull sounding and had too much bass with very little top end. Both went the same way after a few years.
When I got new ones (in both cases), the treble reappeared and the bass was more controlled. So I felt that headphones do actually wear out over time perhaps?
It just amuses me that so many assume that it's happening and report such dramatic changes for the better which is something I'd never really experienced until the HD681.
At other time, I've always felt that it's just me adjusting to them tbh.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 21:47:41 GMT
I actually believe, like Frans, that some headphones do exhibit burn-in, so keep that in mind when you read the following - Sorry, I don't mean to be cynical, and I generally trust Tyll, but can I ask? Thing is, rigged or for real? Is there any reason at all why he needs to sit facing a (reflective) laptop screen?Maybe there is and I've missed it. Could someone elaborate?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 25, 2013 5:24:31 GMT
Oh no........ and I trusted him.
There's no real gain for him doing that so is it just vanity?
I did wonder but part of me wants to believe that he's an honest guy.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Apr 25, 2013 7:27:27 GMT
I do believe Tyll is trying hard to be honest but he is motivated by money as well. Burn in and money, however, are not related in this case.
Burn-in can work in all kinds of mysterious ways. I believe temperature change can have bigger effects than the actual change of properties of the membrane.
Put one in the fridge (around +7oC not the freezer) and leave it there for a few hours. cushion foam compliance and membrane properties will change.
the material the membrane is made of will largely determine the effect (if any), not all plastics are nor behave the same.
I only experienced substantial changes with the HD681. With the HD661 (I had 3 at the same time so could actually do a real comparison) showed no changes at all. All my other headphones didn't show changes as well.
What often happens is one get's used to the sound or.. one listens quickly and is not impressed. Listens later on (remembering to be disappointed in the back of the head) and it isn't as bad as remembered and presto 'improvement'.
I still often experience sonic differences when listening to the same setup and music (Sansa Fuze on KSC75) one day it sounds heavenly, another day it sounds crap yet another day it's just O.K.
Some of the same effects might be happening with most of the reports reviews out there.
I have rarely seen efforts supported by measurements or someone having 2 of them and comparing them really blinded.
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juke
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Post by juke on Apr 26, 2013 9:06:09 GMT
I don`t think think that burn-in or prolonged use, due to the mechanical properties, has any perceivable effect on ortho`s. Syd might be able to express an opinion on this, as he now has a brand new pr of HE6`s, after listening to mine which have many hours on them....... Mick. I couldn't detect any difference between my new 6s and your well used pair Mick. I thought there might be some difference for a while but none that I could detect. Just waiting for the filter boards to become available for that final little tweak toward perfection, to my taste of course Big thank you again for leading me down this path ;D Syd
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Apr 26, 2013 10:06:41 GMT
That wait is almost over. The PCB's are in and I already populated one filter board for modified T50 to test it. (Mick ?). Currently in the process of finalising the article that goes with it. Perhaps it will be posted on DIYAH this weekend already.
50 PCB's are available and looks like a 'custom build' service is going to be possible.
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dicky
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Post by dicky on Apr 26, 2013 10:32:04 GMT
Customised to individual headphones?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Apr 26, 2013 11:19:46 GMT
yep...
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dicky
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Post by dicky on Apr 26, 2013 11:41:58 GMT
You have PM.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 12:10:34 GMT
PM from me too, Frans
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Apr 26, 2013 21:11:32 GMT
It's like a can opener!!! Your headphones take on a new 'fresh air' character and start to breathe more.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2013 9:50:06 GMT
Technically, BI is for REAL. You think the car engineers stupid? Also, giant high voltage industrial traffos also need to be run in at lower voltage before the full blast during commisioning. Then the traffo engineers are also stupid? Read any engineering books and there will be some indices covering BI and MTBF. So the engineering book authors are stupid? Nay, they are objective people. What? Chong writing objectively after numbering 8? Seeeeeee, I still can write on both accounts.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 1, 2013 9:53:25 GMT
You aggressive chap! You need to do some yoga Chong.
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