mgh24
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Post by mgh24 on Jul 26, 2018 1:15:06 GMT
I have just purchased my first tube amp, a Garage 1217 Ember II. Looks to be a very fine piece of equipment. But I have a problem. Two sets of headphones get the most head-time. Audeze EL8-O, and a Symphones V8 build. For the last three years or so my only DAC/amp have been Schitt Magni/Modi. With this combo, I have fallen head-over-heels in love with the V8 build. It has Goldilocks bass – not too much, not too little, just right. Being a Grado-esque build, it is on the bright side, which usually does not bother me. Now enter the Ember. It came with a 12au7 tube, and I purchased a 12BH7-A. Someone graciously mailed me some other tubes to try (gotta love audio enthusiasts). Every single one of these tubes boosts the bass over what I had become accustomed to with the Magni. I no longer have my Goldilocks bass So the Ember is useless to me with these headphones. I do not have a well trained ear, there are many subtleties I can not hear, but I do not hear any corresponding warming of the treble with any of these tubes. I love it with the Audeze, as I am one of those that feels like the planar bass is on the light side, so some boost with them is great. My question – is there a tube that will not boost the bass. Or at least what I perceive as a boost to the bass. A tube that brightens up the entire frequency range won’t do, as these drivers are plenty bright already. Is it just the nature of a tube amp that it will always be warm compared to solid state? Will I never find my Goldilocks bass in a tube? Tubes I have on hand: 12au7 clear top that shipped with the unit. JJ 12BH&-A that I purchased at the same time. Two other 12BH& tubes. Raytheon 12AX7 Amperex 6DJ8 GE 5963 BTW, Love the customer service from Garage 1217, would not hesitate recommending them. If there is a better place to post this, or if this subject has been covered over and over, my apologies. I attempted a google search, but must not have been using good terms, as I did not find anything useful.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 26, 2018 5:21:51 GMT
Is the Ember set to low output R ? should not matter much with LCD2 tonally except that the tube is driven a bit louder giving more harmonics/tube sound. With the V8 drivers there may be a bass boost when the output R is set to mid or high and recommend low setting for this one.
Have you played around with the input cap settings ?
The frequency response should be ruler flat from 10Hz to well above 20kHz with the majority of the tubes.
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mgh24
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Post by mgh24 on Jul 26, 2018 12:14:31 GMT
I have to set the impedance to medium or high to eliminate hum from the tubes, which is a subject for another thread, but it appears to be due to old wiring in my house. I don't think I have any tube I can run at low impedance.
I have gain set at the low setting.
Thanks for the help, much appreciated.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 26, 2018 14:23:16 GMT
Have to address the hum first. Shouldn't be audible.
Does the Ember stand on top or very close to other equipment ?
test this by using the Ember set alone on a table with only the amp connected to the mains with the vol switch turned down and only a headphone plugged in (low output R) When the hum is not present move the amp around and see where the hum becomes audible. Most likely a magnetic field.
When the hum is only heard when connected to other gear it may be a ground loop.
When the hum increases with the volpot it may be a cable with poor screening.
After it is determined where the hum comes from and is dealt with try listening to the amp with low output R.
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mgh24
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Post by mgh24 on Jul 27, 2018 0:42:04 GMT
All testing done with lowest impedance jumper set.
Humming does not increase with volume pot. Turning the volume way up will introduce some static. Humming happens with the amp connected to it's power supply only. Disconnecting devices has no affect.
Moving the amp around did not help. I had tried it once before, but tried again, disconnecting everything, reconnecting one piece at a time. At first I thought it had helped moving it, but on further listening I don't think it made any difference.
The Amperex 6DJ8, and the Electro-Harmonix 12BH7 are dead quiet. The GE and the Raytheon hum no matter what I do, with one exception - If I hold the amp in one hand, and touch the input or output connectors, the GE will go silent. If I touch the top of the two large capacitors, it will go silent.
The JJ 12BH7-A will hum also, no matter what I do with it.
Would I be correct in thinking that the Amperex and the Electro-Harmonix are higher quality tubes?
Did not listen to much music, just checking tubes for hum.
Thanks!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 27, 2018 11:14:20 GMT
Looks like a grounding issue mostly.
The fact that some tubes pick up more hum or have more noise originates from their gain and the anode current it operates on. The same goes for roll-off in the treble which goes hand in hand with lower currents and higher gain tubes.
You could try the following: use a piece of wire and run it from the shield of one of the RCA connectors to a known 'ground'. This can be copper waterpiping in the room (where it is not painted) or central heating connected with metal piping (also a non painted patch needed) or a ground lug from an AC outlet. Ensure you NEVER connect it to the live or neutral wire. See if the amp becomes silent.
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mgh24
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Post by mgh24 on Jul 27, 2018 13:37:46 GMT
I suspect it is a ground issue, but if so, it will not be easy to remedy.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 27, 2018 15:07:18 GMT
In that case the easiest way is to connect a piece of wire between the RCA output shield for instance and a 'known' ground. When this works it is simply a matter of the connection a bit more permanent. Sometimes a safety ground is connected to gear that has a 3 prong cable and is connected to a 3prong socket. In that case an extra wire between line out and an unused input of said device can help.
Not being able to actually see the circumstances it is difficult to give proper advice. In any case... the Ember should not show an audible hum.
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mgh24
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Post by mgh24 on Jul 27, 2018 23:11:57 GMT
Well, I have no clean ground to use. So my options are:
1. Finding tubes that are quiet (like the Amperex and Electro-Harmonix) 2. Using other tubes at higher output impedance. 3. Selling the Ember.
I like solution 1 best, though I'm not certain I can tell a difference in sound in changing impedance from lowest to middle setting, so solution 2 may work also.
That brings me back to my original question: Is there a tube(s) that will give less bass than the Amperex and the Electro-Harmonix? I very much like the Electro-Harmonix sound when I am in the mood for some extra bass, but would like to find a tube that did not have as much emphasis on the bass.
Thanks for all the help
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Post by lobalwarming on Jul 28, 2018 6:05:15 GMT
A great tube, one of my favs of the miniatures is the E80CC - features phenomenal clarity that makes many other tubes sound dull and bassy. The Tungsram E80CC is the best value. The pinched waist Phillips are crazy $$$ now. You could also try a few tubes from the 6CG7/6FQ7 family - similar to the 12BH7s, but often without the prominent bass. The most balanced 6CG7 I've used is a Canadian Westinghouse 6CG7 - tough to find. The Sylvania 6CG7s from the 1950s are pretty well balanced as well. Would suggest a Telefunken 6922, but over-priced and not as good as the E80CC in my indefatigable opinion. ;-) In the 12AU7 family, a vintage RCA 5814A is one of the best balanced I've used - a Telefunken 12AU7 is very good as well (and not stupid $$$). Still does not deliver the clarity of the E80CC. If you were to use G1217's great 6SN7 to 9pin adapter, it opens up the vast range of 6SN7s tubes. With some rolling, expect you will find some 6SN7s that suit your desired flavour. This is the beauty of the G1217 amps - they're not a tonal destination - they're the rolling train across the sonic scenery. The journey is destination. My G1217 Solstice lives in an RFI infestated office, so most tubes require some sort of screening to reduce hum and noise. If the noise is not too loud, then a solid copper spiral connected to rear thumscrew does the trick. Shown wrapping around a Sylvania 12SN7. Other tubes in my always expanding collection can require more shielding - then I make an RF cone-of-silence from copper RFI sheilding sheets. A copper lead from the shield is connected to a thumbscrew. Since we aren't hearing your gear with our ears, can't suggest definitive options. Other than getting a Solstice, an adapter and a Tungsol 12AH7. That tube combo slices off the bass almost as well as a stock pair of Grados ;-) Perhaps Frans could suggest a passive line level filter inserted between the DAC and Ember. Or you could go old skool and use a schiit loki and eq like it's 1959!
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mgh24
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Post by mgh24 on Jul 28, 2018 18:07:13 GMT
Thanks for the recommendations. And now I know for certain it is a grounding issue. Found a plug in the house that created a lot of hum, that was close enough to a water pipe that I could run a ground to the RCA shielding, and tube went silent. Now - how to get a good ground to the room I listen in
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 29, 2018 5:30:48 GMT
Proper grounding isn't always easy. Most outlets in living rooms do not have safety earth (at least where I live). In those cases running a wire to a grounded point, central heating (with metal piping) should always be grounded. Remove some paint and tape some wire to it. Another option is (copper) water piping, Should also be grounded and the same paint things apply.
In most of the cases the amps are silent by themselves and don't need grounding at all. In some cases there might be a real need for it.
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mgh24
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Post by mgh24 on Jul 30, 2018 13:13:17 GMT
Please bear with me, and have some patience. I’m not sure I am clear on what you are stating.
1. If you are cautioning me about what I use as ground source, I think I understand that. I will not be able to tap into existing wiring for a ground, I will have to find something that goes to earth. I am hoping I can use the sewer vent pipe that runs up through to the roof, as it should go to earth. If that does not work, I may need to run a wire down beside my furnace vent – a bigger pain, but then I would terminate in a room with grounds available.
2. In my experiment, I ran a copper wire from RCA out shielding, to steel pipe water supply under a sink, and the hum in one of the noisiest tubes went silent. I took this as a positive sign that this amp does indeed need grounding. Would you agree with my conclusion?
3. If that conclusion is sound, would I be correct in concluding that if I ran a true earth ground to receptacle I am using, then the receptacle would now be grounded, and that should give the amp good grounding without the need to fabric a ground to the RCA shielding?
4. To quote you from above “In most of the cases the amps are silent by themselves and don't need grounding at all. In some cases there might be a real need for it”. So is it just my bad luck that the amp I bought needs a ground? That a different amp may not have the same issue?
Thanks for all the help, and the patience. I am beginning to appreciate the Ember more with the two tubes I have that are silent, or at least very close to being silent.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jul 30, 2018 21:56:01 GMT
Keep going. It seems to be a grounding issue. Frans has always been of great help with these issues. If grounding is an issue with your house a lot of other tube amps or even SS may have problems. I have all grounded sockets (now) the one socket in the entire house that wasn’t grounded, a mistake by the builder, I pluged my subwoofer into. It took a lot to figure out the hum.
Doesn’t seem to be bad tubes. The Ember is a very quiet amp.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 31, 2018 18:30:22 GMT
Please bear with me, and have some patience. I’m not sure I am clear on what you are stating. 1. If you are cautioning me about what I use as ground source, I think I understand that. I will not be able to tap into existing wiring for a ground, I will have to find something that goes to earth. I am hoping I can use the sewer vent pipe that runs up through to the roof, as it should go to earth. If that does not work, I may need to run a wire down beside my furnace vent – a bigger pain, but then I would terminate in a room with grounds available. 2. In my experiment, I ran a copper wire from RCA out shielding, to steel pipe water supply under a sink, and the hum in one of the noisiest tubes went silent. I took this as a positive sign that this amp does indeed need grounding. Would you agree with my conclusion? 3. If that conclusion is sound, would I be correct in concluding that if I ran a true earth ground to receptacle I am using, then the receptacle would now be grounded, and that should give the amp good grounding without the need to fabric a ground to the RCA shielding? 4. To quote you from above “In most of the cases the amps are silent by themselves and don't need grounding at all. In some cases there might be a real need for it”. So is it just my bad luck that the amp I bought needs a ground? That a different amp may not have the same issue? Thanks for all the help, and the patience. I am beginning to appreciate the Ember more with the two tubes I have that are silent, or at least very close to being silent. The goal here is to connect the RCA ground to an easiest available ground in order to direct hum towards ground. Typing on a phone so will get back to this topic in 2 weeks
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