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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 18:23:30 GMT
this subject is debated at length elsewhere, just wondered what you guys here think about their worth?
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Post by covenant on Jun 22, 2013 18:37:45 GMT
I firmly believe they make a difference but like all things in this hobby you can spend an awful lot of money for very little improvement. Worse than that, you will convince yourself the improvement was worth it. What I hate is people who try to use cables as a form of tone control;they should disappear. The most I have spent is about £50 for interconnects and £100 for fairly long silver speaker cables. I have no wish to try Telurium cables or any of the pricey ones. It's worth scouting around for second hand cables though, they often come up on the forums.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 22, 2013 18:47:41 GMT
Personally, I'd save the money. I got an aftermarket cable for my Senn HD650 and imo it didn't make a lot of difference and cost an awful lot of money. I could have bought an amp for the same money.
I'm not convinced that the sound is changed by cables on headphones. I hear changes with speaker runs, but not headphones if I'm honest.
Also what put me off with the Senn HD650 was the fact that I had spent somewhere around £175 for a cable and it enters the cups where a single hair thick piece of wire connects the drivers to this cable.
Not only that, but it was stiff as hell and just got in the way.
In the end, I went back to the stock cable and have never missed it. For me, the most important thing about a cable on a headphone is how stiff it is and whether it transmits noise. As far as changing the sound of the headphone or improving clarity, I have doubts tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 19:00:25 GMT
Personally, I'd save the money. I got an aftermarket cable for my Senn HD650 and imo it didn't make a lot of difference and cost an awful lot of money. I could have bought an amp for the same money. I'm not convinced that the sound is changed by cables on headphones. I hear changes with speaker runs, but not headphones if I'm honest. Also what put me off with the Senn HD650 was the fact that I had spent somewhere around £175 for a cable and it enters the cups where a single hair thick piece of wire connects the drivers to this cable. Not only that, but it was stiff as hell and just got in the way. In the end, I went back to the stock cable and have never missed it. For me, the most important thing about a cable on a headphone is how stiff it is and whether it transmits noise. As far as changing the sound of the headphone or improving clarity, I have doubts tbh. my opinion matches yours pretty much. i do remember the cable on my old ath-ad2000 was very microphonic, which was annoying at times. i have also read people say the same for the stock he-500 cable. this was one factor which made me choose the lcd-2 instead. on the subject of the lcd-2 , many people rave about silver cables as opposed to copper. some of those are nearly as much as i paid for the headphone! i have noticed the UK based company "toxic-cables" . their silver cables do seem more reasonably priced. but as you say, what affect does the drivers internal cables have?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 19:02:12 GMT
I firmly believe they make a difference but like all things in this hobby you can spend an awful lot of money for very little improvement. Worse than that, you will convince yourself the improvement was worth it. What I hate is people who try to use cables as a form of tone control;they should disappear. The most I have spent is about £50 for interconnects and £100 for fairly long silver speaker cables. I have no wish to try Telurium cables or any of the pricey ones. It's worth scouting around for second hand cables though, they often come up on the forums. the 2nd hand option does make sense, i agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 19:42:44 GMT
I'm not convinced that the sound is changed by cables on headphones. I hear changes with speaker runs, but not headphones if I'm honest. I've recabled a few headphones and didn't notice a difference. I generally recable to get extra length, or a more supple cable, not for a change in sound. However, a few months back when I had to open up my AKG Sextetts to reflow a couple of the joints which had become 'intermittent', I thought I would push the boat out and use some pure silver cable I had left over from another project. I recabled the can internally, both sides, and kept the original, external AKG cable (which many don't like for some reason). I definitely had expectation bias - I knew they would sound better with silver. But guess what? Soon as I put them on I didn't like them, they sounded much brighter than before, which really didn't suit the Sextetts. I left them to burn for 48 hours and listened again. No, no, no. Far too bright. Took them out there and then and replaced with some bog-standard Evolution Pro, a copper cable. Back to the smooth, velvety, treble that I loved (and still love) on these cans.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 22, 2013 20:12:03 GMT
Well, it may be just me. I know that Israel is keen on a certain cable on his headphones and changes them routinely when he gets new headphones. I respect that and each to his own. I certainly don't think any less of people who hear differences and good luck to you. If it works, then that's fine. It's just that I have difficulty in advising people to buy an expensive cable because I couldn't guarantee that they would hear any differences and I think it's best to be as honest as possible to myself. The question is, how convinced are you by cable changes that you feel perfectly at ease to suggest that someone buys an expensive cable based on your advice? If you are absolutely at ease with it, then I'd say that you are convinced that it makes a difference. I'm not and so I feel uncomfortable advising someone to repeat what I feel was an expensive mistake for me. Worst of all was how uncomfortable the cable made the headphone. It was way to heavy duty and the plugs touched my shoulders if I moved slightly. It was a very well known cable for the Sennheisers. I've forgotten the make. I was amazed that the plug was even on at an angle on a cable costing as much as it did. I've always liked the look of the Cardas cables since they are rubbery, but there's no way I'd spend that kind of money on a cable again. I'd rather buy another headphone. I think the older I get, the more I need to have a proper measurement of what's going on before I'm really convinced. I have found that your ears can be very unreliable; moreso with experience and perhaps trust my ears less than I used to as a result. They can be easily tricked as I have found quite a few times. Since using the T40 as a reference, I have found headphones to be extremely variable and deviate in different places, that if you didn't have a reference to come from, you'd be unaware. I know the T40 is pretty flat since Frans measured it and I also had it checked, so once you have a reference, you realise just how easy it is to trick the ears. Comparing the T40 with the Senn HD650 reveals some deviations from neutral on the Senns. Not massively, but nevertheless, I can easily detect it by using a reference, but without it, I find the Senns sound fine. So having some way to determine differences measurably; either with equipment or keeping something as a reference makes sense to me. The best cable for me is one that has a comfortable length, not too stiff, doesn't conduct noise, is well shielded and a lovely colour is a bonus!! However, if you're convinced by it, fair play. I have no problems with that whatsoever and am glad that it improves a headphone for you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 20:42:42 GMT
surely in this day and age this issue could be proven with some sort of technology rather than based on opinions from a persons hearing.
my uneducated guess is , providing the cable is screened so there are no induced noises, its not microphonic and the terminations are good, that is as good as it gets. as for changing the sound signature, i doubt that could be possible. my guess is its a "money spinner". but i did say my opinion is "uneducated". feel free to prove me wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 20:46:47 GMT
put it another way. there are many headphone FR graphs out there. do these cables change those? if yes then obviously they do make a difference. if "no" then its a money spinner surely. ?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 22, 2013 20:52:35 GMT
In all honesty, that's how I feel and I would be dishonest by recommending spending quite a sum on a cable to someone asking for advice. I'm not absolutely convinced myself but am perfectly open to it being real.
However, would anyone recommend someone say spending £100 on a cable and guaranteeing that there would be a positive improvement? I'm not convinced even most people who say that they hear differences would do that just in case the person buying on recommendation couldn't hear anything different.
Even reviewing amps or headphones, that I think are good may not necessarily be what someone else thinks is anything near good. For that reason, I try to be as honest as I can be and look for negatives too so that people can make up their own minds on whether to buy something rather than blindly rely on what I say.
I've been quite lucky in that I have connected with people on hi fi sites in the past, who kind of have the same outlook/tastes in sound as me. So if they review something favourably, the chances are that I would probably like it.
The T40 in particular though, has shown me that many things that I like are not really neutral or flat and my tolerances of variations has contracted as a result. Quite a lot actually; and I realise that ears are easily fooled.
Therefore, the cable thing for me is still flaky since many people who believe in it become slightly less convincing when they realise someone may act on their word and spend a lot of money on a cable, based purely on what they say. So I tend to be a little bit careful nowadays!!
I also don't like the daft arguments that can happen as a result of discussing it that I've seen on many forums. Here, I'd hope to keep it all civilised and as I have said previously, I am really open to the possibility of it being absolutely true.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 21:04:13 GMT
dont get me wrong , i hope someone will come on and prove the cables make a difference, with technology to back it up. otherwise there are lots of people being duped. i will happily try one , but only if there is technical proof that it changes the sound signature.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 22, 2013 22:23:13 GMT
FR is not changed by cables at least all cables I EVER measured are flat up to 1MHz at least. Silver is a marginally better conductor than copper but doesn't act as a filter in other words it does not conduct higher frequencies better. It conducts all frequencies equally well between DC (0Hz and 1MHz) the resistance on a 3m cable of the same thickness may be a few milli-Ohms lower resulting in an increase of OVERALL amplitude < 0.01dB Also they cannot add distortion as conductors are linear elements (unlike semiconductors) and thus are by nature physically incapable of changing something. Inductance, capacitance are all irrelevant within (and well outside) the audible range. Only resistance is something that could change things but only if it is really high (and thus the wiring very thin, thin as in IEM's e.t.c.
I would swap cables if the cable is: intermittend 3 wire and want to change it to 4 wire microphonic too stiff too short too thick/thin needs another colour scheme
I say save the money and spend it on a good power supply for one of your components.
Many attempts have been made to show with measurements that different cables would change FR and distortion and to no avail. Purrin even used different amplifiers on the same headphone (both low output R) and took all possible measurements, none showing measurable differences.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 23:01:16 GMT
FR is not changed by cables at least all cables I EVER measured are flat up to 1MHz at least. Silver is a marginally better conductor than copper but doesn't act as a filter in other words it does not conduct higher frequencies better. It conducts all frequencies equally well between DC (0Hz and 1MHz) the resistance on a 3m cable of the same thickness may be a few milli-Ohms lower resulting in an increase of OVERALL amplitude < 0.01dB Also they cannot add distortion as conductors are linear elements (unlike semiconductors) and thus are by nature physically incapable of changing something. Inductance, capacitance are all irrelevant within (and well outside) the audible range. Only resistance is something that could change things but only if it is really high (and thus the wiring very thin, thin as in IEM's e.t.c. I would swap cables if the cable is: intermittend 3 wire and want to change it to 4 wire microphonic too stiff too short too thick/thin needs another colour scheme I say save the money and spend it on a good power supply for one of your components. Many attempts have been made to show with measurements that different cables would change FR and distortion and to no avail. Purrin even used different amplifiers on the same headphone (both low output R) and took all possible measurements, none showing measurable differences. that will do for me. i wont be chucking money at a cable now, unless the lcd-2 cable is horribly microphonic, which i doubt. thanks Frans
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2013 0:38:10 GMT
I'm one that believes cables do make a difference. But the caveat is we must have a high enough resolution system to hear it. You can forget about the cables too if it's just too short to make a difference. I was amazed how an expensive super hirez system at a hifi show showed up the difference between power cables when I expected not much difference. I'm convinced and still is. Big difference I'm writng of that experience. Another thing for sure I do believe is the cable material. The cable geometry does make the sound change but it's the material that changes the cable sound most.
Come on, don't be stupid to take advice of solid core cables sounding better when they are too stiff for your application. Use the multi-cores instead. I just don't know why people are complaining when they are using the wrong type of cables for their applications. If you must insist on a solid core for the "best" sound, don't complaint about being too stiff and heavy. Again, no current measurements will show up enough differences between solid and multi-core cables to account for the sound signature of those cables. But they do sound different in a high enough rez system. Same for capacitors too if based on current measurements.
Btw, we don't need to spend megabucks on cables. DIY a "high end" cable from "raw" good materials like OCC copper and silver or even hybrid silver coated solid or multi-strands cables will do. If you want the best geometry, wow, you need lots of measurements and the problem is those measurements will not show up the differences. These DIY "raw" cables are "cheaply" available most of the time. Also, there are clearance sales at some sites for good material done up cables. Moreover, how to feel the drain on us when it's relatively "cheap". This is a hobby after all and get the best that fund permits is what hobby is all about whether you can hear the difference or not.
You know what? I only just keep on seeing people getting the next "best" things when they had already said or written elsewhere they were already satisfied with what they had. Like those "super" reviews only to be superseded by something "better". Really, catch no balls there? Phew ......, it's just only a hobby. Enjoy it while we still can.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 25, 2013 9:12:48 GMT
Btw, we don't need to spend megabucks on cables. DIY a "high end" cable from "raw" good materials ---- will do. If you want the best geometry, wow, you need lots of measurements and the problem is those measurements will not show up the differences. This is a hobby after all and get the best that fund permits is what hobby is all about whether you can hear the difference or not. Indeed there is no need to pay large amounts of money for a piece of metal with an insulator surrounding it. DIY is the cheapest way to go if you want to make a 'decent' cable with plugs that have a good fit and a decent shielded piece of cable. Make them the length you need. It should be noted that a shielded cable is NOT needed for headphones but can be used for it. In this case the return wire (the common wire in 3 wire config) should be connected to the screen as this generally is lower in resistance than the signal wires which is important for 3-wire headphone cables. With 4 wire cables this is not mendatory but still recommended in case it is used with a 3-pin plug (6.3mm jack) as well. Every cable DOES measure different in capacitance, inductance and resistance. When you go into the 1MHz + territory you can also measure (considerable) differences at 10MHz+. I highly question if this is relevant to sonic experiences as the relatively EXTREMELY low audio frequency range (say 10Hz to 50kHz) and the impedances involved are not influenced yet. The fact that all cables DO measure differently doesn't mean they have to 'sound' different as well. When measuring actual audio signals (even squarewaves) within a bandwidth of even 100kHz you won't measure differences and they do not show up in null tests also. a Null-test consists of the input signal and the output signal of a device(can be cable, amp e.t.c.) where both signals (input and output) are subtracted from each other. That what remains is the difference. If nothing remains there is no difference in the waveform at all. Note that this nulling method 'catches' amplitude, frequency range and phase differences and they are all converted to an amplitude. here is a picture of the one I built (about 30 years ago) The 'fun' part of such a circuit is you can listen to the differences as well as measure them. The device is very enligtening when used a lot and aids in determining when it might be safe to call ... placebo ! I have never been able to show differences exist in interlink cables but have shown differences to exist in amplitude for LS cables but these turn out to be level differences due to resistance and alter the amplitude slightly due to voltage division similar to what one hears when using different output resistances with amplifiers but MUCH less severe. Talking about < 1dB. here is my personal take on cablesof course opinions may vary and in the end it is up to each individual to believe what they feel is correct. It remains important to see both sides of the coin before one decides what works for them.
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