Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2013 19:28:05 GMT
having recently bought the lcd-2 rev 2 and with a (Frans)filter on the way, i feel i am "sorted" on the headphone front. my Panda amp has so much headroom with the lcd-2 that i guess i am sorted there too. i am just curious now about my dac (Meier stagedac). i have had this for a while now and have been really happy with it. it is an "over-sampling dac". i am sure you guys have an opinion on this type of dac as opposed to "NOS" dacs. technology has also moved on since i bought the stagedac.
any opinions/recommendations on this subject would be interesting.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 4, 2013 20:41:15 GMT
archimago.blogspot.nl/2013/06/measurements-digital-filters-and.htmlNOS DAC's are excellent for reproducing squarewaves and can't be beaten by OS DAC's. Unfortunately music does not consist of squarewaves but of sinewaves. NOS DAC's are absolutely terrible at sinewaves and exhibit relatively large amounts of distortion and HF components that may destroy tweeters. Fortunately our hearing is pretty imperfect and the relatively high amounts of distortion are usually lower than our hearing can detect. a THD of 0.01% or better is therefore not really needed. of course distortion ads so if more equipment is in the chain distortion figures should be lower. Once a THD < 0.001% is reached for all components (except speakers and headphones) it is MORE than enough. You don't need to go to 0.00001% e.t.c. It's nice it can be measured but human 8and even super human) hearing simply can't hear -140dB as our dynmaic range is rather limited to 80dB or so. The ringing people fear (in OS DAC's) is only present above the nyquist frequency (> 20kHz in any case) and only present when frequencies are present in the music signal that come near 20kHz. These pre-and post ringing artifacts are always much lower in amplitude than the signals present in the music itself. The infamous peak or step response plots you see from DACs are performed with a signal that is worse case scenario and in practice will NEVER occur/exist. So you won't find any of these post and pre-ringing things in an actual music signal anyway. The Meier DAC seems a capable DAC to me which seems to be nicely built and intended for headphone listening (judging from the crossfeed options). Panda is excellent for driving LCD-2 with a max output R of 10 Ohm fitted.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jul 4, 2013 22:04:51 GMT
Looks like it is a nice dual mono WM8741 DAC but its USB input is a bit dated (PCM2704), it converts to SPDIF instead of outputitng I2S and its jitter performance is not "stellar" but if you are mostly using SPDIF then no probs, the WM8804 is a very nice receiver, it looks they are using it in hardware mode as it doesn't support 176.4KHz input.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 20:40:30 GMT
i forgot to mention, i am using a hiface-2 . have not tried the stagdac usb input. i have had trouble with the hiface-2/driver(??) but that seems to be ok now. before i pulled the trigger on the lcd-2 i had considered the JK Ciunas dac. seems to get excellent reviews and i could offset outlay by selling the stagedac and hiface2. i may look at this as my next "upgrade". or am i crackers? my lcd-2s have been here about a week, have not got my filter yet and here am i already thinking of another change.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 19:35:29 GMT
what dacs do you guys use, or are you all vinyl lovers?
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jul 18, 2013 21:48:38 GMT
ATM I'm using a Buffalo II DAC on a temporary lease from a friend. I own a ES9023 DAC partenered with an Amanero Combo384 USB adapter and also have an Asus Xonar ST and a D2X.
I'm in the process of designing a DIY DAC with another two friends. It'll levearge on all functions provided by the Combo384 so hopefuly we can offer a native DSD capable DAC at a very low cost. If all goes according to plan we'll order the first prototype PCB some time in September.
DIY DACs are fun and you learn a lot.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 18:44:03 GMT
ATM I'm using a Buffalo II DAC on a temporary lease from a friend. I own a ES9023 DAC partenered with an Amanero Combo384 USB adapter and also have an Asus Xonar ST and a D2X. I'm in the process of designing a DIY DAC with another two friends. It'll levearge on all functions provided by the Combo384 so hopefuly we can offer a native DSD capable DAC at a very low cost. If all goes according to plan we'll order the first prototype PCB some time in September. DIY DACs are fun and you learn a lot. i have been curious about trying a new dac for a while now. some time back i had a home trial with an m2tech young dac. all the hype on the forums drew me in. at the time i had no hi-res music (aint got much now either) , and to be honest with redbook material i could not tell it apart from my stagedac. needless to say i returned the young. i have been very tempted by John Kennys products, including the latest "Ciunas" dac. but they seem an awful lot of money for very few parts. especially compared to some of the products from audio-gd for example. i have recently been researching the new DA8 from yulong. nice looking unit with plenty of features (including the usual built in hpa, which i doubt i would ever use) but again its a lot of money and i just think back to my experience with the m2tech young. having said all this, i am very interested in your upcoming dac. i had posted a question on the Ember thread for Frans and Jeremy to see if they had any plans to produce a dac to partner the Ember (and the other amps of course). will your dac be marketed through here as the correction filters are? keep us posted
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 19, 2013 19:42:23 GMT
I have no plans for a designing a DAC and am watching and sometimes ever so slightly involved with Javier's project from a sideline though. Personally I would be happy with the ODAC (sync) or Schiit Modi (async) but that doesn't do DSD nor very high bitrates. For me that would not be a problem as I have no DSD files nor do I believe in the benefits of being able to describe noise in a more accurate way at the expense of huge files and the associated speed problems, but the idea of having a DAC that does well on all kinds of audio formats and ABOVE ALL the galvanic separation Javier is implementing is appealing though as the price will be right as well. Jitter doesn't worry me in the least... If there is a magic word that 'explains' perceived differences and all and 'bad' things can be blamed upon in audioland it is the feared word jitter. Nowadays most DAC's all have very low jitter anyway and DAC's are no longer 'depending' on the timing of the transport. In Earlier days this could be a problem (timing in transport) but now isn't. The biggest worry in computer audio these days is common mode currents. Best way to deal with that is to 'break' that path by either optical isolation (speed limitations) or as implemented by Javier and friends. Personally I will most likely be buying a FiiO X3 , shortly and hope it is going to get good support. A transport with interface and good on-board DAC and battery fed is as close to ideal to me as it gets and 192/24 is more than enough to me.
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dicky
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Post by dicky on Jul 19, 2013 20:04:25 GMT
Personally I will most likely be buying a FiiO X3 , shortly and hope it is going to get good support. A transport with interface and good on-board DAC and battery fed is as close to ideal to me as it gets and 192/24 is more than enough to me. I pre-ordered one of these a little while ago, Frans; it should be with me in early August. It has a good spec, 10 or so hours of battery life and it isn't an iPod.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 20:04:59 GMT
I have no plans for a designing a DAC and am watching and sometimes ever so slightly involved with Javier's project from a sideline though. Personally I would be happy with the ODAC (sync) or Schiit Modi (async) but that doesn't do DSD nor very high bitrates. For me that would not be a problem as I have no DSD files nor do I believe in the benefits of being able to describe noise in a more accurate way at the expense of huge files and the associated speed problems, but the idea of having a DAC that does well on all kinds of audio formats and ABOVE ALL the galvanic separation Javier is implementing is appealing though as the price will be right as well. Jitter doesn't worry me in the least... If there is a magic word that 'explains' perceived differences and all and 'bad' things can be blamed upon in audioland it is the feared word jitter. Nowadays most DAC's all have very low jitter anyway and DAC's are no longer 'depending' on the timing of the transport. In Earlier days this could be a problem (timing in transport) but now isn't. The biggest worry in computer audio these days is common mode currents. Best way to deal with that is to 'break' that path by either optical isolation (speed limitations) or as implemented by Javier and friends. Personally I will most likely be buying a FiiO X3 , shortly and hope it is going to get good support. A transport with interface and good on-board DAC and battery fed is as close to ideal to me as it gets and 192/24 is more than enough to me. the "battery fed" feature is what draws people to the JK products. i love the idea of it being constantly charged by usb power, but it is expensive. i will certainly hold fire now. i am keen to know the design features being considered by Javier and his friends.
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Post by clausdk on Jul 19, 2013 20:13:57 GMT
I have no plans for a designing a DAC and am watching and sometimes ever so slightly involved with Javier's project from a sideline though. Personally I would be happy with the ODAC (sync) or Schiit Modi (async) but that doesn't do DSD nor very high bitrates. For me that would not be a problem as I have no DSD files nor do I believe in the benefits of being able to describe noise in a more accurate way at the expense of huge files and the associated speed problems, but the idea of having a DAC that does well on all kinds of audio formats and ABOVE ALL the galvanic separation Javier is implementing is appealing though as the price will be right as well. Jitter doesn't worry me in the least... If there is a magic word that 'explains' perceived differences and all and 'bad' things can be blamed upon in audioland it is the feared word jitter. Nowadays most DAC's all have very low jitter anyway and DAC's are no longer 'depending' on the timing of the transport. In Earlier days this could be a problem (timing in transport) but now isn't. The biggest worry in computer audio these days is common mode currents. Best way to deal with that is to 'break' that path by either optical isolation (speed limitations) or as implemented by Javier and friends. Personally I will most likely be buying a FiiO X3 , shortly and hope it is going to get good support. A transport with interface and good on-board DAC and battery fed is as close to ideal to me as it gets and 192/24 is more than enough to me. I have an X3 on order, if it is as good as I read at head-fi it is really a nobrainer, I do not want to carry along an external amp/DAC and stuff my pockets with all sorts of different things so the X3 would be perfect for me, IF it is good..
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 19, 2013 20:40:57 GMT
the "battery fed" feature is what draws people to the JK products. i love the idea of it being constantly charged by usb power, but it is expensive. i will certainly hold fire now. i am keen to know the design features being considered by Javier and his friends. AFAIK the DAC is still USB and might not have galvanic separation. Perhaps it does use galvanic separation but reckon it doesn't and isn't clear from his website. I think he feeds a (simple ?) DAC circuit from a battery that is powered 'directly' from USB power via a battery control circuit I reckon. If it doesn't have galvanic separation, the PC and its common mode currents will still be 'connected' directly to the audio-chain thereby NOT breaking the possible ground loop. In that case I do not see any benefits (aside from the claims that it is suppose to be cleaner) of using a battery. Perhaps he does use galvanic separation after all and feeds the battery via a DCDC converter, but if he did he would likely have mentioned it as a major selling point. I have no doubt JK's Async DAC sounds good though, but so many do these days, including the nice looking and very affordable (E 100) Async Schiit Modi. I don't know what I can and cannot tell about it but it has galvanic separation which is a major benefit when driven from PC based systems, can do PCM and DSD and has a good PS scheme and analog section. It all is still in 'concept stage' and on the cusp of solidifying into a prototype AFAIK.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jul 19, 2013 20:56:51 GMT
... and it isn't an iPod. my thoughts exactly. May seem a bit 'clunky' compared to the slim and nicely styled i-crap but... I ain't slim and nicely styled either
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 21:01:11 GMT
i only use my ipod in the car as i can control it through the car stereo , without touching it. dont think other players offer this license preserving feature!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 16:08:43 GMT
the x3 looks very interesting. i was laying in the garden earlier today and just could not be arsed to go get the ipod from the car. what with knowing full well that i wont sound as good as it used to since i sold my voyager. the x3 would have performed much better i guess. so maybe i have a use for 2 portables? Javier - is there any more info on your dac design on another forum or is it a case of "watch this space"?
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