Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 22, 2013 9:57:28 GMT
Morning Guys, For quite a while now the oft repeated mantra about "It doesn't matter what others think about your system's SQ, what matters is your opinion" has mildly irritated me, because for me it is not true. There is nothing in this world that is so good that it cannot be improved (with the possible exception of my wife ) so, whilst I do enjoy the sounds that my set up produces I know it can be improved so I am always open to considering what I can do to improve it. Bankruptcy probably lies at the end of this path but I can not ignore the facts. So no more telling me that I should just listen to the music - I do listen to the music and greatly enjoy it. But when I think about what sound I used to 'settle for' and what I have now, there is no comparison, so I am sure similar improvements are available just round the corner, the only problem is choosing which corner to look round. Sat Navs for this purpose are not available and getting lost can be frustrating and expensive . Dave.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 22, 2013 11:45:18 GMT
I'm not exactly sure what you've saying, Dave. If you suspect your gear could sound better, really you need to try to identify how you'd like it to be better before buying the gear I guess.
Problem is that hi fi can be hit and miss depending on what you partner the gear with.
My brother has an expensive system that to me sounds pants. It has too much mid bass and is murky. Considering he's using Naim stuff I am surprised.
Funnily enough I was with him yesterday after clearing out Mum's place and I basically pulled the speakers away from the walls and one out of a corner. Toe'd them in slightly and put them on a couple of slabs.
He noticed an improvement straight away so sometimes it can cost very little. I got a couple of concrete slabs and put a cloth over them, so the speaker spikes went through to the slabs.
It could be improved a little more with dampeners on the walls at reflection points.
He may go that far, but the cost of the improvements was minimal and it's not always the gear.
Trouble with hi fi is that you can end up chasing your own tail as we have seen in the Ember thread. Any problems will be blamed on the poor Ember and not the surrounding gear!!
My brother bought the gear as a result of people giving him recommendations and unfortunately, he's not keen on it.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 22, 2013 17:12:33 GMT
What/where/which improvements are you looking for ? Each individual component in equipment, headphones, amps, cables, power supplies, DAC's, transports, speakers ? Sometimes inexpensive changes can take all that is needed, but as long as the question 'how can sound be further improved' keeps nagging in the back of your mind, I assume one can never be really satisfied with what one owns and the grass from the neighbours will always be greener. For quite a while now the oft repeated mantra about "It doesn't matter what others think about your system's SQ, what matters is your opinion" has mildly irritated me, because for me it is not true. Can I ask you what is irritating you about this standpoint ? Why should you care what other people, who never heard your system, think of it as they cannot hear it. You are the only one (and perhaps those close around you using it as well) that may have an opinion on your system. In the end it only matters if it performs to your liking as others may not 'value' fidelity as much. Some like brand A over brand B or type A over other types of the same brand but you may prefer D but cannot afford it. In your living room for instance, speaker A, that sounds great in there, might sound utter crap in the bedroom or vice versa. That doesn't make it crappy or excellent it's just what it is. Expensive and 'highly recommended' gear may sound beautiful to person A but person B that comes around to your house may not like the sound at all. Someone you pay a visit may like his/her system very much but you may find it crap or think it is so-so or may even feel it sounds better than what you have at home. So why care what others think about your gear as long as you like it ? (that's what is meant by my 'mantra') What's 'wrong' or irritating about it ?
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 22, 2013 21:57:43 GMT
Ian & Frans, My problem is, I acknowledge, my problem. A few short years ago I was waxing lyrical about my wife and daughter who had both bought a Bose sound dock on which to place their iPods, now I don't enjoy listening to it at all, too bass heavy and 'foggy' for me. I was looking in the loft about 4 or 5 years ago for something else and found my old Sony record player and a small collection of LPs, EPs and singles, complete with old speakers, all of which got put away when our two children came along over 40 years ago. Money was not so tight so I dug them out and played a few records, only to be instantly converted away from the Bose sound dock. The bug bit deep and I began the upgrade journey - some wrong turns but a few more right ones. I now have a system that I am very happy with but upgrading has been (mainly) rewarding and, I suspect, could well continue in that vein, 2 paces forward and one backwards. To me it is only natural that, if you do something and it turns out to be very rewarding, you look at repeating it or something similar to see if more rewards are forthcoming - I'm sure we were all like that when we were courting - our younger members may need to ask their elders for a definition of 'courting' . With regards to what I am looking for as the next upgrade(s), I am completely open minded - for instance I have a reservation on the first production board on Javier's current project and I await with interest Mike's latest SPDIF variation. I am very confident that both have great potential to improve my system but only time will tell. I am also interested in hearing whether a headphone upgrade could be a cost effective 'investment' for me. I don't see new speakers or amps on the horizon for quite a while but at the same time I would not be immune to 'investing' in a 'steal' type bargain on either if one came along and I could 'try before I buy'. So, to repeat, nothing (even my set up) is not so good that it cannot be improved but shortage of funds will bring this process to a natural conclusion . So there!! Dave.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 23, 2013 5:10:25 GMT
Sound quality is always as good as the transducer, provided the amplifier can drive it properly.
Transducers have FAR more distortion (alteration of the sound) than ANY other component. Transducers have FAR more deviations in FR than any other component.
Transducers are converters from mechanical to the electrical plane and vice versa and that's where the problems lie. All headphones/speakers you own and tried sound VERY different from each other for that simple reason.
THIS (the transducers) is where you should focus on if budget is tight.
You can often make improvements on them (both headphones and speakers) with tweaks that are sensible and proven. BUT that can only bring so much improvements it won't turn every headphone/speaker to the level where the expensive stuff is.
So... IF you have some money to burn I HIGHLY recommend to audition headphones/speakers that are at at the top or below the limits of your budget and compare them (using familiar music). Not buy blind based on recommendations by others but listen to recommended ones yourself.
THIS will bring the MOST improvements by FAR.
The next step is to realise the other side of the chain is the biggest contributor to SQ. It's something that is more or less out of your hands. The source... and I don't mean the transport or DAC. I mean the real music source... the microphones and studio/recording.
On perfect sounding system A, B, C and D well recorded music sounds great and crappy recorded music sounds well... ermm crappy. Someone hearing crappy recordings on a lovely system will draw conclusions the system sucks while it does not.
IF you want to enjoy TOP notch sound use WELL recorded music (the format really doesn't matter that much) and top tier (or high tier with tweaks) headphones speakers.
Your amp is not the problem, nor is your DAC, nor are the I/C's.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 23, 2013 9:17:49 GMT
Thanks Frans, That is exactly the sort of advice and information that I really appreciate - very interesting and makes very good sense. Now how to implement it is the problem (but not a big one ). Thanks again, Dave.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 23, 2013 10:17:38 GMT
perhaps by selling headphones/equipment you no longer use or plan to not use anymore you can increase a budget.
The next questions are (when you want to look for suited headphones) :
What is your budget (headphone only) ? Open or closed ? (only relevant if your goal is to minimise sound to others or want to shut out noises from outside) Comfort (weigth, fit) ? On-ear or over-ear ? Pads: velour, pleather or leather ? for Portable or indoor or both (may need a portable amp)? Clamping force ? Size of the head and ears also are a factor. Sound signature (big bass, fun or as realistic as possible) ?
With these questions answered you can narrow it down to just a few headphones which you should audition or buy via the internet with a return policy (Thomann for instance)
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 23, 2013 11:04:06 GMT
The next questions are (when you want to look for suited headphones) : What is your budget (headphone only) ? £200 (maybe plus a bit if really tempted).Open or closed ? (only relevant if your goal is to minimise sound to others or want to shut out noises from outside) must be closed - I know not ideal but need to consider wifey who does not share much of my taste in music - I use speakers in her absence.
Comfort (weigth, fit) ? must be comfortable (obviously) see below.On-ear or over-ear ? over ear.Pads: velour, pleather or leather ? I prefer velour to pleather but I fancy leather all though I've not tried any. for Portable or indoor or both (may need a portable amp)? indoor and for serious listening SQ not top priority for outdoor use and I have a good selection already for that purpose. I also have a great portable C-Moy amp built by Mike.
Clamping force ? need to be comfortable and clamp enough to effectively seal, otherwise I'm fairly open minded. Clamping force only important if they are 'on ear' IMO, which mine won't be.Size of the head and ears also are a factor. Large ish sized head with slightly stick out ears.
Sound signature (big bass, fun or as realistic as possible) ? definitely realistic if that translates to how the musician intended his music to be heard.
With these questions answered you can narrow it down to just a few headphones which you should audition or buy via the internet with a return policy (Thomann for instance)
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 23, 2013 12:08:00 GMT
In no particular order.
Denon D2000 (second hand ?) AKG K551 (different from K550 you tried comfort will be the same) Audio Technica ATH-M50 (newer version, higher clamping force like SRH-840) Sennheiser Momentum (over ear! > GBP250 ) Beyerdynamic DT250-250 (not suited for big ears as the cups are rather small, velour pads, do NOT buy the 80 Ohm version) Shure SRH-840 (high clamping force, pleather pads) lush Beyerdynamic DT770 pro (make sure to have the 'proper version as there are many different ones) Sennheiser HD250-II (second hand, pleather pads) Fisher Audio FA-003
Consider Fostex T50RP with external filter box (may cost over GBP 200 fully built) and 'beats' all the headphones above, sounds more like GBP 500-1000 range. Not fully closed but more than average isolation. A stock or even modified T50RP without filter is not preferred (by me) over the headphones listed above.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Sept 23, 2013 13:44:50 GMT
Consider Fostex T50RP with external filter box (may cost over GBP 200 fully built) and 'beats' all the headphones above, sounds more like GBP 500-1000 range. Not fully closed but more than average isolation. A stock or even modified T50RP without filter is not preferred (by me) over the headphones listed above. Hi again Frans, Thanks for your input - there are 2 or 3 on there that I have been thinking about so that bodes well. I don't expect a replenishment of funds now until after Christmas and then the twins will be with us, hopefully, so more demands on spare cash . If I was to go for some cans that needed a filter to optimise them (from your list) would you be up for adding the filter for me? - your usual commercial terms of course. Thanks again, Dave.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 23, 2013 15:41:54 GMT
The over ear Momentum is pretty tight for ear space Dave.
Frans, is the K551 a tad warmer than 550? That would suit Dave if it is. He has a K550.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 23, 2013 16:53:33 GMT
K550: K551: I think (never heard either) that the K551 is slightly more neutral. I suspect the K550 may sound ever so slightly boomy with some music and may be a tad on the 'harsh' side in the treble judging from the plots. The highs seem 'nicer' on the K551 but detailed with lots of air. Slightly less but 'better' bass on the K551 I think.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 23, 2013 19:19:11 GMT
Thanks Frans. I do have a problem with the K550 top end. Now you have me wondering about the K551!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Sept 23, 2013 19:45:14 GMT
I already am working on a correction filter proposal that removes the peak between 8 and 10kHz. Perhaps I should use the other available section to remove that 100Hz peak.
The K551 isn't as cheap as the K550 that now gets 'dumped' because the K551 is now there.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Sept 23, 2013 19:57:52 GMT
Not too bad with 5db at both ends either. Take them down and it looks pretty good.
Is it the K550 with an inline microphone? (That's a shame) If it is, it retails over here at just £130!
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