Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 6, 2013 22:13:58 GMT
Here I go again, setting myself up as a target for some of you to take a 'pop' at . I have long since understood that a dedicated radial power supply (with it's own mini consumer unit supplying only the AV/Hi-Fi gear) and properly earthed was preferred to get the best SQ from one's gear. Due to the layout of my property (a detached bungalow built on a concrete raft 1m below the floor boards), running power cables, TV aerials and network cables from and to any room in the bungalow is not a problem. I recently bought a BNIB 100m roll of 3 x 4mm sq 500v rated cable very cheap on an auction site (not feepay) so I installed a silver plated twin socket in the wall behind my kit and ran some of this cable under the floor and back (through a wall - the hardest bit ) to the main consumer unit and a separate earth wire (4mm sq) from the incoming copper water main back to the main consumer unit. It then cost me a relatively small sum to get a certified sparky to install the dedicated mini consumer unit and connect everything up to the incoming mains electricity supply and then test and certify everything. All went smoothly I'm glad to say . This was largely an act of faith on my part, not really expecting much if any improvement, just wanting to do things proper like . Tonight I got my first listen to the new set up, vinyl from my Techie TT. Now the contentious bit - I reckon the improved SQ is very significant - the speakers effectively 'disappeared' and all I heard was a series of different sounds coming from different places in the space between the speakers, every instrument in it's place with air and space between them. I have heard this occasionally before with some CDs but tonight it was consistent, no matter what LP I played. I have not yet played any vocal LPs, all Instrumental easy listening or orchestral so far but I'll listen to some vocals tomorrow. So, the question: - Is there any science behind what changes I now hear from the dedicated radial power supply or am I just suffering from expectation bias? To the best of my knowledge my mains did not appear to be any problem before this change and my local substation is probably less than 100m from my property. I am convinced I know the answer but what do others think? Over to you . Dave.
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Post by clausdk on Nov 7, 2013 0:16:20 GMT
My house's wiring is made by a drunk madman, but it is not all bad, in my livingroom I have an outlet that has a group for it self, so I have a clean powersource...
I tell myself it is better, but if I suffer from bias I can not tell and do not really care, I just enjoy the music..
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2013 2:59:19 GMT
Dave, l'm sure Frans will come in here and prove us totally wrong, but being a proponent of the importance of a good power supply, I've always thought that a good clean power supply would be even better! If the supply came from a different spur, free of the switch-mode PSU's, starter motor's for fluorescent light units, fridges etc., that pollute the supply, then we would be feeding the hi-fi with 'clean' power, which surely could only result in a clean signal out?
I get the feeling this is going to be like a typical episode on 'QI', where everything you were solemnly taught as 'gospel' truth in school, turns out to be completely untrue!!
Jeff
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 7, 2013 10:12:58 GMT
Update: FWIW I listened to a couple of sides of 'Ole Blue Eyes' and I did not get the same impression regarding sound stage - early days yet but ..... . I am aware that it might be a bit different getting a sound stage effect from a single voice, and the instrumental accompaniment is more in the background than instrumental or orchestral works, and the LP in question was an old charity shop acquisition which I have not cleaned since I got it (but looks OK to me visually) but I need to do a bit more listening to be sure (in my own mind ). Tonight I will listen to a duet LP that I am very familiar with and see what I think of that (and others). To be continued . Dave.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Nov 7, 2013 12:57:46 GMT
Reality or Self Delusion?
perhaps a third option... wishfull thinking...
(based on: This was largely an act of faith on my part, not really expecting much if any improvement, just wanting to do things proper like) You can say you didn't expect anything, but did spend quite some money knowing it will be 'right' (better ?), IF you really did not expect improvement (or desire it) you wouldn't have gone through all the trouble I think.
'The explanation' isn't there from a technical viewpoint as there is no such thing as 'clean' mains and changing a cable (even adding another group) isn't going to change anything on an electrical level.
Mains only delivers a voltage (extremely low frequency with some harmonics and small signals in the kHz range) and only the peaks of those large voltages are used to 're-fill' the reservoir caps in a power supply. A rectifier/reservoir cap doesn't care about how 'clean' it is. Except for some power amplifiers all reservoir caps are followed by a regulator circuit. It's that circuit that determines how clean the power supply is where the electronics work with, not the mains as they are completely separated by the reservoir caps and regulator.
The common mode signals pass all circuits unattenuated and can only cause trouble if ground(return) wiring isn't done properly. They will be equally present on 'clean' mains as they are on the 'dirty' mains.
These signals are coupled capacatively because wiring is next to each other in the fuse boxes and wiring to the house.
I had measured the RF spectrum in my house once (I had equipment at work) and even though I have 2 separate 'phases' in the house the common mode garbage I measured was the same everywhere (the cables are all connected in the fusebox after all and thus all garbage is present on all lines maybe somewhat attenuated by filters used in certain equipment).
The 'ethernet over mains' boxes are evidence enough. These actually use RF signals but differential mode and can be used on several groups in one house (unless they come from different phases)
Common mode garbage travels similarly through expensive and cheap cables.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 7, 2013 14:33:39 GMT
Hi Frans, I 'hear' and understand what you are saying but I have to say that I do not accept it as readily as I accept most of your other opinions on hi-fi electronics. That is not to say that I disagree with you OK? - my 'jury' is still out on this. As we all keep repeating, what matters is what the listener hears - my kit and I reckon there is a distinct improvement so nowt else matters . I counter your 'expectation bias' theory with the statement that I had no expectation of improvement or otherwise and I heard a distinct improvement with the instrumental/orchestral music but was much less convinced with the vocal tracks - no real expectation either way but convinced on one and 'iffy' on the other. To choose the one that suits your views but reject the other (if I understand you correctly ) would appear to be a bit selective, no? In the relatively short time I have had any serious interest in hi-fi I have learned that not everything that affects one's enjoyment of music can be measured, quantified and calibrated - (I offer harmonics as an example but readily admit I haven't a clue what they are ) - so why can't 'muck' in mains be in this category? - some of it can be measure, quantified and measured and some of it can't but the bit that can't has effects on SQ that some can hear and some can't. I don't think we know everything about audio reproduction - look at the way we reproduce it (in my instance). Leaving out the process whereby the performer's sounds are put on a copper disc in a format that they can reproduce ad infinitum on a 'plastic ' disc. A rotating 'plastic' disc with grooves in it, all of which have imperfections in them that vibrate in 4 planes a miniscule specially shaped bit of a jewel which in turn produces four fantastically small signal variations in voltage/current(?). These four signals then each pass down their own long thin wire, to a small circuit board where they may be amplified and then down 2 more robust wires to another circuit board where they are again amplified, on to a power amp where more amplification takes place and then on to speakers where they are expected to excite (vibrate) a powerful magnet attached to a paper cone and reproduce the original sound laid down on the spinning plastic disc. In no way can this be regarded as an ideal way to reproduce sound but it is the best we have available ATM. At almost every stage in this process there are opportunities for sound effects to be introduced, dropped and/or magnified, any one of which might be exacerbated by 'muck' in the mains supply that we do not know is there. I realise that there are a lot of 'ifs and buts and maybes' in there, I just try to justify that we do not have 100% knowledge or control of the sound reproduction process. Another target for you all to have a pop at . Dave.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Nov 7, 2013 16:30:24 GMT
All I want to convey is to not expect the explanation to your experiences to be of electrical origin, which seems the logical thing to do as only that has been the only VISIBLE change and thus MUST be it.
This response was because of your question where opinions are asked:
Is there any science behind what changes I now hear from the dedicated radial power supply or am I just suffering from expectation bias?
To me, audio and electronics don't hold as many 'secrets and magic' or question-marks as it does to you (and millions of others).
35 years of experience with electronics and audio (reproduction) simply has taught me different things than the experiences you have had and conclusions you draw.
I am convinced we know FAR more about audio reproduction than we know about the brain and how it interprets incoming 'signals'. Electronics is very predictable and measurable and fully understood and we can measure FAAAAAAARR beyond any audible limit.
Audio = electronics right up to the point of the driver where it becomes acoustic. It's that plane where things go wrong... the next hurdle is perception by the brain which differs from individual from individual.
It's the 'brain and perception' part that holds the aspects that to you are the 'might be's, could be's 'perhapses' in your way of thinking, not the 'changes' in the electrical circumstances (educated guess). This is not just applicable to you and me but every human being.
As long as you enjoy your music more I am happy for you, just don't expect a technical explanation for every perceived one, even if they are clear and obvious to you.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 7, 2013 19:08:59 GMT
Hi Frans, Thanks for your response and for giving it some serious consideration. I am/was enough of an engineer (metallurgy) to understand that nothing happens without a reason and I spent much of my (early) working life trying to identify what was causing the happening subsequently seen. Please note I am not saying that such experience on my part in any way matches your experience in this field - as I hope you know I greatly respect your opinions and experience in this area and the open and generous ways you are willing to share it with anyone who seeks your advice, including me on more than one occasion. I also understand the difference between real events and perception. So we are back to whether my improved SQ was real or perceived. Because I don't think I had any expectation bias and because I heard the SQ on one whole tranche of LPs but was not convinced on another single LP of another genre indicates to me that it is real - I will do some more listening tonight to other LPs to gather more evidence, either way. Assuming it is real (obviously easier for me than it is for you) and also assuming whatever is causing any change cannot be identified or measured only leaves room for us not being aware of all the relevant factors. I am not rejecting your opinion in any way shape or form but I am remaining open minded for the time being at least. Providing you and I (and anyone else who cares to contribute) can keep this on a friendly, open discussion basis I am happy to keep the discussion open but if it descends into an ' I know what I know and I know you are wrong' argument I shall no longer contribute. Thanks again for sharing your valued opinion - I shall return with more 'findings' later . Dave.
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Post by Dave on Nov 8, 2013 21:42:32 GMT
Hi Frans (and any other interested party ), I'm afraid I'm gonna be even more contentious tonight regarding the upgraded mains supply, My audio memory is probably shorter than most others, I would not doubt. How this manifests itself to me is that any improved SQ, real or perceived, rapidly becomes the norm, so comparing it with a 'lesser' sound of 2 or 3 days ago becomes even more difficult. Nonetheless I remain convinced that what I am listening to now is noticeably better SQ than before the mains were upgraded (dedicated radial supply). I have spent this evening listening to my HiRes (24/96 and beyond) FLAC files from my PC via an Amanero board (with grateful thanks to Javier ). It sounds stunning and much better than I recall pre mains upgrade so any effect the upgraded mains may be having seems to extend to all sources - this does not surprise me but it may some of you more knowledgeable (and sceptical) guys. I will further shock the 'no can be' brigade by also stating that is seems to improve the LCD TV picture (brighter, sharper) but this is admittedly not so noticeable as the improved hi-fi sound. And, what's more, the TV, which doubles up as my HT PC monitor, also seems to have a slightly better picture (brightness and sharpness again) but where I really see an improvement is in the sharpness of text when in monitor mode, particularly black text on white background. I have used the word 'seems' quite a lot above in deference to those who remain convinced it cannot be so - I have no wish to collide head on with anyone more knowledgeable than I with divergently opposite opinions to mine - it is not worth falling out about amongst friends, no one else will ever have the opportunity to see/hear for themselves and I am more than happy with my expenditure on the mains upgrade. Despite having no expectations but hoping for noticeable SQ improvement I think things are better on most fronts - I is happy and no one else's opinion will change that so end of story - reality or delusion, I don't care!! You lot can't say I'm not giving you plenty of opportunities for target practice . Dave.
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Post by solderdude on Nov 8, 2013 22:07:21 GMT
I am glad you are happy and won't spoil your fun.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 9, 2013 7:17:15 GMT
No one would use you for target practice, Dave. The tv is puzzling though! It'll be aliens next!
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2013 8:20:22 GMT
No one would use you for target practice, Dave. The tv is puzzling though! It'll be aliens next! Hi Ian, Up early (for me ) listening to SotS (Brian Matthews) on R2 - now that is music IMO with just a few exceptions. I'm gonna hide behind the sofa for a while though, just in case anyone brings out the heavy artillery . I realised that when I added TV to the list I was sticking my neck out a bit and risking giving Frans apoplexy but I thought it only fair to include it in the list. FWIW we watch everything on a Sony 40" LCD through a Sky HD box which are also fed from the same 'cleaned up' dedicated radial - don't know whether that is likely to make any difference. No aliens though - yet! All credibility now lost here, ah well, ces la vie
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Post by solderdude on Nov 9, 2013 10:14:57 GMT
As long as you are happy with it is all that counts. Have you tried Eminem on the new powerrail yet, it might sound a lot better now and you may even like it.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 9, 2013 10:50:41 GMT
Well now I've dared to mention Eminem here, my cred goes too eh? Up with my Fanny Wang's!! Maybe I should try a pair of Dr Dre's best offering in order to appreciate the fine nuances of Eminem's voice? Made myself more of a target I reckon...... Well, DIYAH has the first ever reference to him I suppose. Another first? I must admit ..... It serves as a good reference to poor recording quality with regards to compression and distortion. Another of my wife's buying sprees (one was a red car - when she told me she'd bought a car, I asked via a text message what it was. She replied 'Red') was a 55 inch TV. These blokes turned up with this huge cardboard box. I thought it was something flat packed as in furniture. It turned out to be a Panasonic 55" TV that I had to set up. Mind you, it is very good; especially with HD. No aliens on the power supply yet though.
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Dave
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Post by Dave on Nov 9, 2013 14:38:32 GMT
As long as you are happy with it is all that counts. Have you tried Eminem on the new powerrail yet, it might sound a lot better now . and you may even like it. Frans, I believe my new leccy supply has achieved a lot in terms of my enjoyment of music but enjoying 'MnM' is way beyond even it's capabilities BTW my wife has also, unprompted, remarked on the current picture quality on the TV so make of that what you will! . Dave..
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