solderdude
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Post by solderdude on May 7, 2014 20:18:15 GMT
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 7, 2014 21:07:10 GMT
They're turning up all over the place. I prefer the closed version although it's far from perfect. Nice for portable use but top end could still be more open.
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Post by Cranky on Jun 18, 2015 2:10:59 GMT
I recently purchased the Studiospares M1000 headphones, but found them to be truly awful.
Despite being very comfortable to wear, the acoustic quality completely fails to live up to the review given by Rabbit. I found them to be rather fatiguing to the ears. Far from having a reasonably flat and "natural" sound, they are somewhat bass-heavy with unpleasant mids, and lacking detail in the high frequencies. When, for example, I play 'Rhiannon' by Fleetwood Mac (vinyl) on my hifi, the low frequencies swamped both the vocals and percussion. Playing a variety of rock-orientated music on my PC, using a software EQ, I found that I needed to raise the 8kHz band by about 4.0dB and the 10kHz band by 6dB to improve vocal definition and allow cymbals to cut through properly, but still the lows and mids were uncomfortable. In this respect they are totally unsuitable for mixing, let alone pleasurable listening. I have a cheap pair of Sennheiser HD201 headphones that I use for tracking, and their reproduction of sound is far better and easier on the ears than the M1000 that I received. After a session lasting around 15 minutes, whereupon I took them off, my ears and head were uncomfortably numbed. A truly horrible product.
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Post by Cranky on Jun 18, 2015 2:14:24 GMT
With reference to the above posting, I should have mentioned that I was referring to the Studiospares M1000 headphones. Unfortunately, I could find no means of editing my previous post.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 18, 2015 5:18:01 GMT
For mixing with closed headphones there aren't that many good options aside from the Beyerdynamic DT250 (in 250 Ohm version)
Mixing should be done on good nearfield monitors instead of headphones, should you have to use headphones look for the DT250-250. Headphones vary more in FR than nearfield monitors. Decent and cheap monitors are JBL305 (can emit slight noise in a silent room close by) or the Mackie MR5 mkIII
Nor everyone likes the same sound sig and the FAA3 (M1000) is a decent sounding (but not exceptional) headphone that is sometimes refered to as the poor mans HD650. Except ... it is nearly as good. Headphones are really very personal things and person A may LOVE headphone A while person B detests it ... such is life.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 18, 2015 5:44:37 GMT
No, they're not what you would call 'neutral' at all. A bit boxy. I found them useful for a while as a 'play into' headphone. Ie, definitely NOT for monitoring. My normal 'play into' headphone was the dt150. A few reasons was that it is built like a tank and when I'm playing. My head is like a sieve and I had a tendency to put them down and forget. I developed a reputation fir sitting on headphones!! The dt150 took this without a wimper. It's also modular for repairs and responds quite well to eq. It can also be played loud without pain since the top is rolled away; in fact, so loud that it was possible to use them as mini speakers on your neck.
So for me, a good 'performing' headphone was the Beyer. Interestingly, I wasn't so keen on it as a home listening headphone. A little dull with big bass.
The m1000 is similar. Rolled away top and big bass. There are also cup colourations, but it served well as performing headphone, like the Beyer. Not as good as the Beyer though.
I wouldn't use them for monitoring purposes at all. They're not accurate enough for that. I used headphones like the Sony V6 or now, the mdr7506, but again, not for mixing. Monitors are way better for doing that and you get more consistent results. In any case, one person may well hear a different sound on a headphone.
Dt250 is very consistent and has a good frequency response. For 'field' monitoring or live situation monitoring, the hd25 is pretty good. Mainly because it's built like a tank in spite of being plastic and can be thrown around. Not necessarily because it's a hi fi headphone.
For me, each headphone that I have serves a 'purpose' and so certain aspects of build or sound are necessary for different applications. For instance, the Sony v6 doesn't make for great listening on a hi fi system really, but great for picking out artifacts and problems in recordings. At least it is a very cheap option.
I think with hi fi, many look for a 'one size fits all' option and so get disappointed by what they hear. I quite often change the headphone depending on what I'm listening to since there are very few that are neutral. So I try to use the best attributes of each one to enhance my listening.
At home, I use an hd250 or a dt250 quite a lot. I also use a Fostex m50 with different pads to give stronger bass than the Fostex than the m40 which has been modified. If I just want a little isolation rather than loads, I go to the Fostex th900. Sometimes, even the AT M50 or Yamaha mt220 which is very nice. Also a Roland closed headphone which is quite delicate sounding. Or a d600 for big bass.
In other words, I hop around. Never stuck with one headphone really.
The m1000 is a cheap headphone that has a very strong build. It gives a big bass and is very warm, so it works better at high volume and is quite nice to 'play' into. I must admit, for home listening, I found it lacking in the end and it was put away.
Closed headphones are quite a minefield!
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Post by Cranky on Jun 19, 2015 0:24:26 GMT
Decent headphones should be comfortable to listen to, but the M1000 model comes nowhere near that. They just sounded cheap and nasty. I've just purchased a Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro, because I want a headphone not for mixing, but for listening to detail during the mixing process, and the M1000 does not fulfil this requirement. The M2000 had originally caught my eye, but, unfortunately, Ian, I was swayed by your positive review for the M1000 earlier in this thread, but at least I managed to obtain a good will refund from Studiospares. I thenceforth decided to stop being a tight-wad and go for the DT880 Pro, of which I am at the moment awaiting delivery.
In response to Solderdude: I purchased a pair of JBL LSR305s a few months ago and found them dire. They were boomy, with harsh mids, and very fatiguing, succeeding in giving me an earache and a bad mood. Consequently, I returned them for refund and now have an excellent pair of Yamaha MSP5. For classical music they are superb, but they lack the lows that I require for my rock-pop oriented material, so I've just ordered an Adam Sub7 subwoofer to compliment them.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 19, 2015 5:16:32 GMT
I'm glad you got a refund! Surely mine wasn't the only review you read? Solderdude also published a fr graph so you must have seen a visual representation of the sound? A bass hump between 2 and 3 hundred hz and a gentle slope downwards, showing that they are warm sounding. No massive peaks so they are quite smooth. By sounding 'cheap and nasty', do you mean not extended in bass and treble? Because they do go down quite a long way and aren't too bad up top although very mellow. We normally associate 'fatiguing' with a raised treble, which these definitely don't have. How were they fatiguing? Was it the raised bass? proaudioblog.co.uk/2012/06/m1000-review-by-will-anderson/evangelriclapore.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/studiospares-m1000-studio-monitoring-headphones-a-review/www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5069743www.yourepeat.com/watch/?v=yNLjqeXqSr8Mostly positive reviews. If I act on other listeners'' reviews, it tends to be from people that I know share a similar preference for sound. Trouble is, I got the headphones they reviewed and then read what they were saying to see how similar to my thoughts they were so it was quite a costly hobby. At least then, you work out a smaller set of people who may have similar ears to use a reference and equally, they latch on to you as well. If that's not possible, then I look at any data or graphs avaialble. You may find the dt880 a bit thin sounding, or that's just the kind of sound that you prefer.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 19, 2015 5:25:30 GMT
The sound of the JBL depends on placement as well as tastes. Didn't buy it either (have Dali's) but in their price range sounded best to me from the bunch I listened to. (including expensive Genelecs) The boomyness may be a room issue, the mids (upper mids) seem indeed elevated yet do not measure this way. Had some boomyness with the Dali's as well (due to postioning) and solved it by filtering them for lower frequencies and use a sub to take these over.
You can shave some of the treble peak of the DT880 by using 1 or 2 layers of toilet paper in front of the driver if needed. The DT880 has a substantial treble peak.
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Post by Cranky on Jun 19, 2015 13:43:48 GMT
Ian: My apologies. Those links you provided all show up as 'visited' so I must have obviously checked them out too, although yours, as far as I recall, was the most analytical, and all those positive reviews must have also managed to sell it to me. I also noted the frequency response chart, but the verbal reviews seemed to contradict it, especially those working within a recording studio environment. I just don't get how such people who operate within such a critical environment could have praised the M1000 so much. The ear fatigue was indeed due to the elevated bass. The treble reproduction was better after I used an equaliser to raise it up, but I remember perceiving some unpleasantness (can't remember what exactly, probably a little distortion) in the mids, plus some blatant distortion on the highs with cymbals.
I haven't received the DT880 yet, so I can't comment on them, but we'll see.
solderdude: The room may have contributed to the boominess of the LSR305, but I don't in any way experience that with the MSP5, although this may also have something to do with the fact that the former has rear facing ports, whilst the latter has them forward-facing. However, even when I positioned them in the doorway with a large empty space behind them there was no noticeable difference. I've received the Adam Sub7 today and they do add the much needed lows that the MSP5 is missing, and the set-up now sounds excellent and complete. The motorised volume and crossover controls on the front, adjusted with the remote control, make accurate set-up so easy. I realise I shouldn't make a big deal regarding speakers on this thread, because it is off topic.
Thanks for the suggestion regarding the toilet paper. If I have problems with the treble on the DT880 I'll bear it in mind.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 19, 2015 18:51:08 GMT
I think guys in the industry are actually less critical than enthusiasts to be honest, Cranky. I've just retired from both live performance work and working on various things in studios as well as teaching students about studio performance and techniques. I really believe that we look for something quite different to enthusiasts as well.
One thing we need is to be able to repair quickly. So the headphone needs to be modular with none of the quirkiness of the boutique type headphones. So if a driver blows or gets stabbed, it needs fast replacement. They mustn't easily fall apart since they often get mistreated. That's less important to hifi people.
The lead needs to be out of the way so better if we can change them. Not for sound. I don't hear cable differences if I'm honest, but sometimes I need a short lead or curly lead over a mixing desk while I need to change it if I want to perform with a playback through a headphone. Sometimes, I needed a massive lead.
Noise mustn't come from the headphone. The other way around isn't quite as important. Reason being that we want nothing to go back into a mic feed.
It needs to be comfortable, since I could be working on something for hours.
It needs to play loud. Not because I'm a nutter, but it's actually easier to play with 'life' volume coming through the feed so you play better yourself. That means the treble is easier if it is rolled away. Not hi fi treble since many hi fi people also listen at wimpy volumes!! Actually, I do at home to protect my ears so I tend to prefer something different at home.
It helps greatly if the headphone responds well to eq adjustments.
The thing is, the m1000 fulfills most of those things quite well. It is sold as an industry tool really as well. However, for many many years, I have used a Beyer dt150 for that kind of work.
So for monitoring playback and playing into it, they serve the purpose.
To listen for recording faults and problems, I used something else completely different. Perhaps a Sony v6 or Yamaha mt220 because they really highlight nasties in recordings.
To hear a final mix down and listen put for what the 'target audience' would hear, I used the Senn hd600 or 650. I also checked final recordimgs with AKG K701 to give the opposite view (if you like) to the Senns.
Checks also on monitors - Yamaha monitors or other specialist studio speakers.
So for me, headphones have remained tools really rather than I need an 'ultimate' headphone....... Until now. I've basically stopped working and so want somethimg slightly spectacular for my home listening that will 'flavour' my recordings rather than analyse.
The m1000 for me was a pretty good 'tool' and not at all bad at home on daps. Perhaps guys on here didn't really take up with the m1000 and m2000 because maybe they realise that I had different priorities. I did mention at one point a hardness in the treble while also feeling a little shut in up top.
I do worry about reviews since there will be guys like yourself who may react, buy one and as you did, hate it. I always feel very responsible and try to be as honest as I can. I do have a brake in the form of Solderdude who can normally come up with tech info and he is spot on since he has an uncanny knack to read data and graphs and describe basically what you will probably hear. He is someone that I always take note of which helps to temper my subjective reviewing. So my apologies if I misled you into buying one and it didn't suit.
I'm glad you got you money refunded. Studiospares are a very understanding company. They deal with quite a few pros so I guess they're used to tantrums!!!
I hope you like the dt880. I found that one difficult to get on with in the long term because of its treble peak. Funnily enough, I wouldn't mind trying another one now. I just got my younger daughter a new headphone which isn't too shabby ... An AKG K545. I have a K551 as well and it's sort of similar. Not bad at all.
Best I've had at a sensible price without a doubt was the Senn hd650 with a filter designed by solderdude that brings up sub bass, lowers the mid bass hump, leaving you with a really gorgeous, full and open sound.
You should join us and stop being a distant guest!!!
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Post by Cranky on Jun 27, 2015 16:28:39 GMT
I've been running these DT880 headphones for a week now, and am really pleased with them. They are the best I've experienced, and a pleasure to use.
When I first ran them I was pleasantly surprised at how comfortable they were, although was initially alarmed at the excessive bass and diminished mids, but after a few hours of running them in they quickly began to settle down. In no way do I find them harsh in the highs. I don't know if it's a feature of earlier models, but mine has either a very thin piece of sponge, or thick, soft material fixed over the speaker units, which probably flattens out the treble spike. So no tissue paper required there, at least not to my taste. I find no discomfort wearing them for a few hours' stretch. It's now been a week with about forty hours of burn-in time and the response seems nicely flat and detailed. Only the other day I was listening to Pink Floyd's 'Wish You were Here' and could hear Dave Gilmour breathing as his acoustic guitar track was switched in. I'd never really noticed that before. I'm now also noticing deficiencies in many commercial releases, such as poor gelling together of the sound.
With the DT880s I listened to an unfinished project I've been working on (my own rocked-up 'big sound' version of Jackie DeShannon's 'When You Walk In The Room') and noticed that although it sounded okay through the monitors, the DT880s exposed a little distortion, insufficient warmth, and some missing high detail. So I loaded a parametric equaliser into the mix-buss and adjusted accordingly. Because I was now able to hear more detail I was now finding that one or two other plugins were acting more as a hindrance, so was able to remove them. Once my adjustments were done with the parametric equalizer I listened through my monitors and was taken aback at how much better it was; incredibly lively and sounding even better than many commercial releases. When I tried this before with my old Shure SRH440 headphones (recently broken), the translations were a total disaster. Those overrated so-called 'studio-grade' Shures, which are poorly designed and way too forgiving, really should be kept out of any recording environment.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 29, 2015 16:44:30 GMT
Your DT880 description got me curious as all the DT880's I heard over the years I could never describe how you did. The older DT880's had a substantial peak and can not be considered bassy or warm nor sucked out in the mids. It seems the current version does not have this peak but does have a similar sharp dip (around 5kHz) like the DT770Pro has instead. HERE is the plot of the current DT880Pro (250) and this one does indeed lack the typical peak and is slightly elevated in the bass/lower mids. It differs obviously from the older DT880's which can not be described as warm/bassy and are more midranne centric than sucked-out (like DT990) The SRH440 are not intended to be accurate headphones, they are intended as monitors and have decent isolation. This new DT880 (pro) may be worth revisiting.... I have always liked my DT990 for its comfort level !
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 29, 2015 21:08:21 GMT
Funny thing ... I got yet another k550 recently for a student, Frans, and to me it seems more mellow than the old one as well.
If the dt880 has been 'mellowed' then it might well be a cracker.
It's strange that no mention is made of this by anyone.
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Post by solderdude on Jul 2, 2015 5:11:10 GMT
Beyerdynamic DT880 Pro:
The DT 880 PRO is a reference-class, semi-open studio headphone which combines all strengths of open, transparent headphones with those of more powerful, closed headphones. Specially designed housings and an improved system equalisation turn this “remake” of the studio classic DT 880 into an ideal studio monitoring headphone, with analytical qualities. Soft ear pads and adjustable, sliding, earpieces together with a single sided connecting cable ensure listening comfort during extended periods of use. [/quote]
It seems Beyer did openly admit to making a remake. Should be an interesting headphone.
Too bad about the same dip the DT770 has though.
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