Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 17, 2014 12:03:09 GMT
Following my write up (elsewhere in written form, not internet where I speak more plain!) I have an SR60......e. on the way!!
Apparently, John Grado has improved the 'I' version, which suggests they weren't as good as they could have been? After a few enquiries the explanations for the 'e' are a little clearer, but I will soon hear it myself in any case.
I met John Grado on the internet a few years back. I have to say, he is very approachable and very helpful. At the time, he had built speakers out of loads of his own drivers!!! (Bet they had no bass!!)
I had an SR325 sent to me at that time and when it arrived, it was silver. I was really puzzled and was told by John that it was the first 325 ....... 'I' in the UK. In the write up that I wrote at that time, I did say that I had found the original 325 a bit too 'glassy' but the 'I' version was a slight improvement in that the edge was just slightly less and it felt a bit warmer to listen to.
However, there was NO deep bass, no matter what pads I used. Mid bass was great, but low bass sent it into spasms of judder and rattle if you dared experiment and potentially damage them. (Interestingly, the Sony 7506 does the same) so, no deep bass. What I really liked though were the mids and at low volume it was very nice. I didn't like it so much turned up.
In the end, the 325i went and then I had an SR125i sent which was a improvement on the old sr125 as well. They came with flat pads and not those awful bowls. That warmed them up but still no deep bass. Of all the Grados, that has been the one I kept. It's great for low powered amps or straight from a dap, although it needs an adapter which is a shame. I still use it though since guitar sounds great on them and again, the mids are good. No bloat.
The improvements to the new sr60 may be the result of Alessandro's version. That is, the new SR60 may be more relaxed sounding. Grado claim that it has a thicker cable which apparently, helps. (Ahem - really?) but it's smoother in the top end and he reckons the bass is more extended. Now, I remember the old SR60 because I used to use loads of them with kids learning mixing/recording. (I got them at USA prices by buying 50 at a time) and one thing I do remember about them is that the bass seemed weightier than any other Grado. I have had them all at some time. As you go up the range, they perhaps become more refined in the mids but I have never been inclined to pay the premium prices for them for so little improvement. (That'll make Grado people annoyed!!) however, try the test I did ..... Have every one of them in front of you, wired in to the same amp at the same time and the start swapping. Then tell me how much they improve ......
The old sr60 was more bassy for me. Grado claims to have extended the bass more with the new version. To some extent, the Golden Ears programme Accudio shows that the bass can be extended a bit. (That's how I use the SR125i) Now I'm kicking myself for getting rid of my old sr60's cheap to now ex pupils who took them away at the end of their courses.
If it is more extended in the bass and more relaxed in the top, it might be a great headphone for £79. I'm not a Grado hater (or lover) but always open to new sounds. The SR125i that I kept has been fine and very open sounding and tbh, not as nasty as some would have you believe. However, bass isn't deep if you compare with say a Beyer DT990, but it sure is a open sound.
soon to find out how the SR60e compares with it........
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Post by c61746961 on Aug 18, 2014 2:15:09 GMT
Looking forward to your impressions. You may find interesting what stratocaster accomplished with a pair of sr125i drivers.
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Post by hifidez on Aug 18, 2014 7:50:49 GMT
Yes, interested in what you think. I have had my SR60s since my 50th birthday so 11.5yrs old now and still sounding great. I was toying with the idea of 'upgrading' to the Musical Fidlelity MF100 but tried them, albeit briefly, at this year's Bristol Show and wasn't sufficiently impressed. They were good for c.100 GBP 'phone; if I didn't have a set at this price point I'd have had them in a flash.
But the SR60s are brillinat value for money and even more so at proper USA pricing. I have the SR80s too, which compaired to the 60s are more toppy and less bassy. Which is the more correct I wouldn't say. But I enjoy them both. Main problem, market-wise, is that some people find the Grado fit and feel unbearable. I don't have that issue and can wear mine without discomfort.
Ian, hurry up with that 60e review :-)
Derek
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 18, 2014 8:30:04 GMT
The bass is quite surprising after those mods. Nothing like what I'm getting from mine which sounds quite rolled away lower down. There are some talented modders out there for sure, but the one essential thing needed I think, is something to actually measure what you've done. Or at least 'comparatively measure what you've done.
I tried a pad change with my k612 which many were raving about. It did what everyone said it did (boosted the bass) but imo, they missed what it did to the mids. Result isn't improved, but changed.
The nice thing about Changster (and some say, not so nice) is their heavy reliance on measurements although I have noticed recently, some more 'relaxed ' posts appearing. I ought to post more there, but feel too much pressure so I haven't really bothered too much.
I'll compare the SR60 to the sound of the 125 although I'm very aware that they're not the same headphone. I'd like the sr125i a lot more if it went down lower. (As long as any improved bass didn't encroach into upper bass and mids) I really don't like that. I don't mind the lack of treble extension, although it's quite bright sounding. It's a very fast and responsive headphone which is what I really enjoy plus that really 'open' sound. It's not as bright as the old version with the pads it now ships with either. I do wonder whether the bowls/pads were an afterthought!! You know, the headphones were designed and pads fitted as an afterthought, since the originals were flat, hard pads and with no changes apparent to the headphone, they produced comfies and bowls.
The SR60e will arrive today so you never know, it might be a pleasant surprise!!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 18, 2014 8:44:57 GMT
But the SR60s are brillinat value for money and even more so at proper USA pricing. I have the SR80s too, which compaired to the 60s are more toppy and less bassy. Which is the more correct I wouldn't say. But I enjoy them both. Main problem, market-wise, is that some people find the Grado fit and feel unbearable. I don't have that issue and can wear mine without discomfort. Ian, hurry up with that 60e review :-) Derek Hi Derek. I've always had a Grado in my collection. I never really mention them a great deal because they seem to bring out the best or worst in people. Some hate them while others love them. More so than any other headphone. I used to use loads of sr60's (at USA prices) as a teaching tool. Older kids hated the look of them, so they didn't get nicked, and they're not bad for what we were doing actually. They stopped kids making bright mixes as well. Good value for sound. I've read that the new sr60 is a shade more relaxed in the top with more extended bass. We'll see. At least that's what John Grado is putting out; perhaps to line up more with modern expectations of sound? I wondered straight away whether the bass will encroach onto the mids and just produce a 'bloom ' since that's what the old ones did if you eq'd the bass too much. (Before they start to rattle ) If the bass is extended and doesn't encroach, then it'll probably be a nice headphone. It will arrive this morning so we'll see. I never kept the old sr60 though, just the sr125i. I've had them all up to the 325i!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Aug 18, 2014 11:01:19 GMT
They've just arrived.
Quick impression on the state of them when they come through the door.......
The box is really small in comparison to the old pizza box. It's still a cheap old box, but a lot snazzier looking. That to me means the market is a changin' ..... Kids?
Inside, is the normal foam that holds the cups in place but the wire has been scrunched up and a wire twist put around it. All well and good as long as they don't damage the wire in the process. I'm sure that the creases in the external plastic will eventually come out with a bit of heat, but why do some manufacturers send out a headphone with wire screwed up? I think that it shows a lack of care and I don't really like it tbh. Then I noticed the 'y' part of the lead trying to twist on itself when you wear them. I am very wary of the cups spinning but it seems they aren't in the factory. What had happened was that each cup was turned in on itself and by twisting the cups out wards by one turn, the kink came out of the 'y' section. Again, it shows a little lack of care.
I also saw exactly the same with the sr325i and if I'm honest, that is not good on a £300 headphone. So, ever since, I always check that the wires on Grado headphones are in fact, connected properly.
The cups and framework are much the same with an interesting red marking inside the back of the cups. Shining a torch in there showed a red disc over the back of the driver. The 125 has a black disc .... I wonder why?
In any case with Grados, I think that it's prudent to have a 'once over' since quality control isn't always the best with them being a small company and all that!! That's why I've always avoided the really expensive ones tbh. If I'm going to pay in excess of £300 for a headphone, I want it to be made properly and I'd like the headphones to be consistent in sound and Because Grado labs is such a small production, I'm more aware of these issues.
So the headphone has been unravelled and checked.
Just for a quick check to see if it works ok, I stuck a track on with not a great deal of bass in order to listen for bleeding or mud in the mids. A Faustus track with fiddles and accordion. I use these kinds of tracks to listen for bass encroaching on mids. The accordion produces lower tones while the fiddles check for 'screeching'. The sr60e seems ok.
A quick comparison with the sr125 shows that the treble (at the moment) is more 'harmonically' rich. The old sr125 (with Senn 414) pads seems a little more refined and the sr60e has more potential for 'Clangy' sounds coming through. It's not unpleasant but there is a more of a feeling of overtones going on up there, so it is very lively. Lovely for folk music actually. It puts a bit of 'grit' back into the music and isn't quite so 'refined' as some headphones. No sign of bleed over yet, from the accordion so nothing interferes with the fiddles.
This could be pad differences though since my 125 has different pads on them.
The other thing that is obvious is that it is more sensitive. It plays louder at the same volume than the 125 of old. One thing about Grados is if you pull the cups away from the head, the sound or volume doesn't change massively. Bass recedes a bit but treble stays since it's a dipole type of headphone. It relies less on any back reflections in comparison to other headphones. It really reacts to covering the grills in a big way as a result, but not so much pulling the pads slightly off your ears. So the distance that the Senn 414 pads make between driver and ear don't really account for the volume difference. It's quite large. That's one of the claims that John Grado made concerning the new series. They are more sensitive. Listening to the sr60e shows it to be quite a bit more sensitive.
The mids seem to be more prominent and again, less refined than the sr125. Not sure which is more 'accurate' at the moment until I switch to something more neutral. (Probably neither of them)
Bass is heavier than the sr125. It doesn't push up into the mids. It's also very fast sounding.
Overall, the mids seem to dominate the sound and at high volume, it goes a bit harsh for me. It's not the treble though; I think it's the upper mids or lower treble that seems to dominate at higher levels.
This is just from brand new so you never know, the infamous 'burn in' might happen.
It's not a bad headphone. The sr125 seems more refined and goes louder without being so 'in your face.' It's way more sensitive than the sr125 and so will suit Ipods nicely, but the lead is too long to use mobile. With a short lead, I could happily use this mobile but no way to take it off without a solder job. (And cups off)
So for the price, it is a good headphone. £79 takes you into the weird area for home headphones. There are some fairly good ones around:
Sennheiser hd449, hd280 pro, hd429, Sony 7506 AKG K240, K171 AT ATH-M40x, es55, However, none of these really do it for me except the hd280, which is ok. (Closed though)
It does well if you look around at the competition around the same price. At the moment, I do prefer the sr125, but then again, it's supposed to be better I guess. I'd say the sr60e has more of a 'clatter' and the sr125 sounds a little more refined and is less sensitive. There are bigger differences in the quality of the treble than I first thought years ago. I'd say that both sound a bit like small speakers though rather than the large Beyerdynamic speaker sound though.
It may be interesting to try moving the cups on your ears. This may be just my ears, but if I place them where I normally put them (slightly forward of the flaps of my ears) and then move them back right onto the flaps of my ears, the treble changes quite a bit. It sounds better defined back on my ears and tambourines sound better defined. I'm starting to find this with a few headphones now and until now have always followed Meier's advice to try headphones low and forward. For me, middle and back is better for most. It doesn't change the very top, but something just below, so that high sounds become way more focused and much less vague. Bass doesn't seem to change at all when I do this, but the balance of the headphone is drastically changed. For some, way better. That's the case with these for
I tend to wear them forward for comfort so my head takes some of the pressure, but push them back so the flaps of your ears take the pressure and the sound changes in the treble and things have more of a definition in their attack. Imagine a bass drum hit where you just hear a thud and then think of that initial attack of the 'stick', which is high pitched, followed by the same thud. That's what I'm describing by moving the ear pieces.
£79 = good value. I'm not sure it's worth moving from the old sr60 to the new though. I wouldn't personally. I bet differences are minor. If the treble was more refined, I would but to me, it's less refined than the sr125 and so probably very similar to the old version. Slightly bigger bass than 125 but mid 'clatter' makes me want to go back to the 125 if I'm honest. It sounds cleaner with less 'congestion'.
Now I'll run it just in case it changes!!!
On the inside of the box, Grado says that they will improve with use and recommend not allowing the headphones to play continuously for extended periods of time. He suggests letting the headphones break in naturally with normal use..........
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