Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 19, 2014 19:48:12 GMT
This is interesting. About perception and hearing. I might stop writing about hi fi gear ............ I might be wrong................ m.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Nov 19, 2014 20:29:49 GMT
thanks Ian my wife's tinny old radio now sounds awesome! ;-) 'cos she said so.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Nov 19, 2014 20:33:18 GMT
i guess this means ,when we buy a new toy(audio) we want it to sound better and so it does! (?)
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Crispy
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Post by Crispy on Nov 19, 2014 20:53:01 GMT
i guess this means ,when we buy a new toy(audio) we want it to sound better and so it does! (?) Sounds about right Simon, only had a quick look at the link from Ian but will watch it fully in the next couple of days, it looked very interesting.
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oldson
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Post by oldson on Nov 19, 2014 20:55:45 GMT
i guess this means ,when we buy a new toy(audio) we want it to sound better and so it does! (?) Sounds about right Simon, only had a quick look at the link from Ian but will watch it fully in the next couple of days, it looked very interesting. i have wasted a shed load of money over the last few years!
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Crispy
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Post by Crispy on Nov 19, 2014 20:59:08 GMT
Sounds about right Simon, only had a quick look at the link from Ian but will watch it fully in the next couple of days, it looked very interesting. i have wasted a shed load of money over the last few years! SAME
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 19, 2014 21:13:42 GMT
Exactly!! I couldn't stop watching it.
I don't mind either approach if I'm honest. I'd say that these guys are informative whereas the hifi guys are entertaining. I like both.
Really, perhaps there's room for both side by side but there seems to be such an agenda from both sides that it gets quite tedious sometimes, I think. Almost OCD type behaviour. One thing I do really find a bit annoying though is the snobbery that we see quite a lot in some forums.
I started to categorise people at one point into hifi 'types' from the 'techie know all' who listens to nothing down to the 'gullible know nothing' who is happy to pay through the nose on the advice of anyone they like!!!
Detail in a headphone is one that has always made me think. I've had the most cheap awful crappy headphone here and listened, then compared with a better headphone and I have to say, the cheap ones don't do too badly as far as detail goes. I still hear all the same notes and can normally pick out small details in the music, although better headphones make it easier to follow them sometimes. However, the cheapos still get close in spite of often really big tonal differences.
Perhaps there's no real one answer anyway .... And that's what makes it interesting.
One system I heard a few years ago and nearly bought for somewhere around £24,000 was (to me) gob smacking. I was transfixed for a day. What I really noticed was that the system wasn't bright and I couldn't really detect a massive thumping bass. The imaging was scary. That was the thing that had me by the balls.
I listened to old stuff, new stuff, weird stuff and what was really gobsmacking was how Elvis (in an old recording) was moving around while his intro played. I could hear his clothes rustling and I could actually point to where he would be standing in the room. Also, the bass player kept sliding very quietly over the strings and Elvis was breathing with asthma force. It was so good that I nearly forked out on the spot.
It wasn't the 'tonal' things that I seem to latch on to with headphones more than anything. It was the spacial element of the recording that made it real for me.
Unfortunately, I don't get that with headphones.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Nov 20, 2014 6:25:50 GMT
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 20, 2014 16:47:25 GMT
They're really good videos and explain things very well. It's put me right off reviewing anything!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Nov 20, 2014 20:05:33 GMT
The funny thing is that everything they say is exactly as to how I feel about it. Including the reamrks about 'scams'.
I did find I became more mellow about this though and as audio has to do with emotions and music and perception everything those guys say make sense in a technical way.
BUT ... it is kind-off like bachelors telling parents HOW their children should be brought up. Parents may make the wrong decisions that more 'remote' people may not have taken etc.
It's the same for audio.
While technically I think those guys are absolutely spot on and you could save a shitload of money by not buying that uber expensive DAC when you already own a good one there is also something as curiosity and looks or features that may warrant that purchase. While Technically my HD650+Kameleon are the most 'real' sounding headphones I own and they are spectacualr on well made recordings on realistic levels it may not sound that good on some polular music. The same is true for the filtered T50RP... absolutely love the sound on great recordings.
BUT not all recordings are great and sometimes I only want to listen at very soft levels. In this case V shaped, U shaped headphones can sound more pleasant while they are technically lacking.
Those guys would say the compensated headphones would be closer to the actual recording ... but like with vinyl ... does it sound more pleasant ?
Audio is about enjoying music and for some enjoying the gear as well. If 'Placebo' thingies can enhance the sonic experience (for a reasonable price) I am all for it IF it is worth it to the owner.
reviews are often written in full honesty and it pays to read many of them to get a feel about it.
So... even though you could get by with an X1 and a single pair of headphones it isn't nearly as fun as fooling around with other gear as well.
ENJOY your hobby... to the fullest and one shouldn't give a crap about what 'experts' say .. even if they are totally right.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 20, 2014 21:43:40 GMT
What they say makes perfect sense, Frans. I find the T40 perfectly fine for most things and extremely accurate. Then there are other times you just want something different, like going into another room if you like, for sound.
Also, the volume you want to listen at affects your perceptions. I find that some snap right into focus low down in volume, while others need a big signal to really bloom.
My own feelings are that the technical specs etc are extremely important, since it is so easy to miss something that is actually obvious. You're just not listening in the right places or frame of mind. The Bravo always comes to mind here with its awful cross talk that I really didn't hear. Once I knew what was going on after you spotted it, I just didn't want to use it again. Even though I could only detect it at high volume. Couldn't hear it at low volume. Just shows you, how things can be masked as those guys are saying.
It would be easier if a certain level of consistency was normal in the describing of gear. Again, as they are saying, specs are often just misleading in many cases. Take the Denon I'm currently listening on 6 hZ to 37khz? Sure!!!! Maybe they mean at -40db? That is SO wrong.
I find a completely subjective viewpoint can be dangerous in that it often misleads people and is something I always struggle with myself when I write about gear. I would prefer to be able to measure as well and yet, that is the very thing that a subjective listener would criticise, where to my mind, the figures just can't lie. Then a subjective attacker would say that you must be 'deaf', almost as though they kind of hear something magic that others find difficult to hear.
I also don't like the way that subjective/objective discussions so often go into turmoil. Great shame really. I always leave room for doubt if I can. I'm also well aware that one day, I might love a headphone sound and another day, I'll hear all the flaws!!
It's an interesting topic that perhaps gets people riled because most don't go through the number of headphones that I do for all kinds of different reasons so not one is what I'd say is 'precious' to me. So it's not a personal thing for me. I happily flit between whatever I have at hand and don't obsess over one sound. I guess someone with just one or two needs to believe that they have the 'best'.
With amps in particular, I find that differences are minuscule. Headphones are a completely different thing.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Nov 21, 2014 9:01:55 GMT
With amps in particular, I find that differences are minuscule. Headphones are a completely different thing. That is the essence. The biggest contributor to sound changes are the transducers (speakers/headphones). These can vary many dB's in the audible band (some easily vary over 30dB) while amps and DAC's vary just a little and only at the extreme ends of the sound spectrum. In the videos they say specs mean a lot but only if you have accurate specs AND all of the relevant ones need to be there. For electronics this is pretty evident and are easy to measure, even far beyond our perception borders, For acoustics things are FAR more complicated and the specs usually provided by manufacturers are pointless and often even non-sense. Hard to determine when they are accurate and when they are not for those who aren't into these things.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Nov 21, 2014 14:58:09 GMT
I'd say pretty impossible to determine whether something is accurate really, without the luxury of the specs. Sheer guesswork without, no matter how experienced a listener you are. I find 'accuracy' or 'transparency' of sound difficult myself since I do adjust very quickly to different sounds and I think my brain (or what's left of it) kind of does all the work for me.
I think many people who perform are used to translating sound from speakers and headphones and is possibly why so many have awful gear that they love listening to. Their brains do all the work for them!!
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Crispy
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Post by Crispy on Nov 21, 2014 20:11:46 GMT
ENJOY your hobby... to the fullest and one shouldn't give a crap about what 'experts' say .. even if they are totally right. Hear Hear Frans - I totally agree with you, ALL hobbies require money and so long as you feel you have spent your money wisely then who cares what other people think. I certainly LOVE my hobby and being a tight Yorkshireman (Like Dave) I don't spend shed loads of money pursuing it (well not any-more)
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