solderdude
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Post by solderdude on May 2, 2015 11:00:23 GMT
z3d sent in his spanking new HD600's to have them measured. My findings can be found in the usual place HERENeedless to say though these are desirable and the most 'flat' headphones around. They only 'lack' slightly in the subbass important. This may not seem like something bad as it get's down to 30Hz but for the total experience that bass extension actuall changes the sound more than one would expect. The ever so slight 'boost' in the 4kHz region and absence of the 'warmth' hump of the HD650 make it slightly more 'boring' if that were the right choice of words. Nothing that cannot be corrected though Will be looking into an exact filter for the Kameleon in the coming week.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 2, 2015 13:16:04 GMT
It's a great headphone. Very even sounding. Worth filtering too. Again ... Two versions with black/white drivers!! I like the split plug too with the cable since it can easily be plugged into portable amps just by pulling the adapter off.
I presume that Jeremy wouldn't be interested in a mains driven Kameleon Frans. The solution you can up with for the access part seemed fine to me.
I guess the modules he'll be putting out ARE the Kameleon and could be fitted before any amp though?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 21:33:13 GMT
I've had my 600's for a few years now. Don't know what colour drivers they have, haven't looked.
I find mine to be reasonably flat, but if I were forced to be really picky, I would have to say they were on the bright side. Maybe because of the lack of real sub bass and the slight boost in the 4Khz band?
Still a supreme set of reference headphones, just a different 'flavour' to the 650's
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z3d
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Post by z3d on May 3, 2015 10:04:52 GMT
I was REALLY interested in having some nice measurements done by Frans on these cans.
After many readings here and here (forums, technical reviews and explanations, comparisons, etc) my former idea when looking for a neutral hi-fi pair of can was HD600 for common setups and HD650 when filtered, cause of the theorically better drivers of the HD650 which could give a little plus in the final sound presentation.
I'm really interested now in both compared with active filters on them and also to point out if HD650 drivers are really audible better or if this only a marketing thing.
Thank you Frans, I really appreciate that as I said you in PM!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on May 4, 2015 20:04:07 GMT
Same HD600 on the Kameleon: The plot below shows it goes flat to below 5Hz... (+/-3dB)
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on May 4, 2015 20:11:38 GMT
Looks fabulous Frans. Maybe hd600 is a better buy with Kameleon?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on May 4, 2015 20:26:21 GMT
It's cheaper than the HD650. I think both headphones are equally good when 'corrected' and have no real preference.
This one is now perhaps a tinsy winsy slightly warmer/fuller/lusher sounding than the HD650 on the Kameleon. It still retains the 'peak' around 4kHz but is now obscured by the warmth. Have removed that peak which sounds slightly better ... still working on it. This was just a first attempt.
When buying new the HD600 may be a cheaper option but if one already ownes one of these headphones a Kameleon sure will get them closer and 'bigger' sounding.
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z3d
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Post by z3d on May 4, 2015 20:51:07 GMT
You Frans, are amazing! I didn't think that also HD600 could go SO LOW, even if I was hoping so! That's the proof about the fact that HD650 and HD600 drivers are more similar than different to me! All the talks about real differences seems to be only marketing-related now. Have you flattened on purpose the differences of about 2db from L-R channels in the 60-10Hz region or it's a normal consequence of the active filter on the headphones?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on May 4, 2015 21:03:45 GMT
the difference is still there but can only be measured around 5Hz.
The difference between HD600 and HD650 drivers is very small. Only a small difference around 150Hz it seems.
Still tinkering though, not completely satisfied yet ...
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z3d
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Post by z3d on May 4, 2015 21:16:23 GMT
And even from 1Khz to 3Khz they differs a bit: HD650 is quite flat to 2,5Khz while HD600 from 1Khz to 3Khz has a peak and then a dip. Or maybe that can be caused by different diaphagram material or different wear of pads?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on May 5, 2015 18:32:31 GMT
Indeed the -3dB dip at 2.5kHz is not present in the HD650 Dips aren't as audible as peaks, so isn't sound degrading. The newer iteration of the HD600 filter (still not completely satisfied and intend to make small changes in the upper frequency range. The lows are phenomenal. Sounds great at this point so may keep this version based on the sound. Below in one plot the stock HD600 and the Kameleon'ed HD600 version. Yes, there are slight measurable differences between a Kameleonised HD600 and HD650 but audibly they sound virtually the same. Will do a sonic comparison when I am less tired....
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z3d
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Post by z3d on May 5, 2015 20:20:12 GMT
You have already improved the filter, you are amazing Frans! Take your time, no problem for me if you keep them a couple of days more, really! The results after filter applied are REALLY promising!
I'm interested also in your personal sonic comparison.
PS: with and without the filters are there any differences in driving those headphones or are they quite similar (thinking about all those talks about incredible scalability of HD650 on dac and amps and HD600 which is claimed to scale way less) ?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on May 10, 2015 12:29:56 GMT
I compared them sonically today and find they sound just very slightly different. Impossible to test this blind as the HD600 has different pads. The HD650's old pads are slightly softer and the clamping force of the HD600 is higher. Sound wise, as mentioned they are very very close.
When comparing the stock HD600 sound to the modified one I would describe it as the 'edge' the HD600 can show with some recordings is gone and the overall sound is somewhat smoother/warmer and 'softer' while the realism increased.
With a filter they are just as easily to drive but you need a bit more headroom in the amplifier. SeNNator on +/- 15 to 17V should be enough for more than decent levels. The Ember has no problems driving it much further.
I don't think the HD650 'scales' better than the HD600. What I do think is that when the HD650 and HD600 are played at the same (higher) SPL the HD650 is more pleasant.
What most peeps do when they start listening out for 'improvements' is they crank up the volume to levels one can only maintain for a short while. In that case the stock HD650 sounds 'better' than the stock HD600. On the filters (in these cases Kameleons) this isn't the case.
One could argue .. well than the limits of the amp section of the Kameleon must be 'stopping' the scaling but once you heard it I am sure you will disagree. Both sound incredibly good on the Kameleon. Far better than the stock versions on more than decent amplifiers/sources.
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z3d
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Post by z3d on May 10, 2015 13:27:18 GMT
I answered in the SeNNator thread too a minute ago, lol. Thank you for the comparison between both; so all in all the advice is to buy the one is cheaper and/or the one which got the colour we like the most? About technical stuff (sorry but I have a tecnician mind and cause of that many in-depth questions!), the impedance of HD600/HD650 changes a bit behaviour with the active filtering? Looking at Tyll measurements ( link) both headphones are in the 300-500Ω impedance range (310-520Ω for HD650 with the peak at 85Hz and 290-540Ω for HD600 with the peak at 90-100Hz); I don't know if it works exactly like common speakers but if it was the case the more the driver has to reproduce lower frequencies the more it will move up and down to move more air; with the added frequency response (50->10Hz) I think the peak in impedance will shift a bit toward the lower frequencies, I can ipotize around 65-70Hz: am I right or I'm saying total bullshit?
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Post by ronzo56 on May 10, 2015 14:20:34 GMT
I had not listened to the HD600 for many years. Last weekend there were several at a meet and a friend let me borrow his pair to use at my table. I had forgotten what a great headphone it is, just as it is. If the filter does the same thing to it as the SeNNator does to the HD650 , it will be incredible to hear. Sennheiser really made classics with these two IMHO And at a reasonable price. These filters take them to a level on par with the best TOTL headphones out there, again IMO.
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