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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 9, 2015 4:42:05 GMT
Finally got around to really giving this "file" a good listen with my headphone rig. Wow. It sounds thin, compressed and the drums and bass are missing. I'm listening with 24/92 FLAC - Dell laptop + Wyrd + Geek Out 450 into SeNNator w/ HD650's. Good recordings sound much better. Great ones sound the greatest. Why doesn't this?
To LZ IV. Listened to to 24/96 hi res file from HDTRACKS really for the first time tonight,. To put this in context, last night I ended up, unintentionally, listening to music with this setup until sunrise. All good recordings.
Tonight I gave Zep 4 a chance. It's seems lifeless, from the start, it sounds like it's being played in AM compared to my cheap vinyl rig in the 70's. It's lost all of the slam and impact. I don't hear flaws I used to on the vinyl, with cheap speakers and headphones. I had to stop after two songs. Hope I can find my CD tomorrow, More later if I can stand it. Has anyone else listened to this? Maybe I am being too harsh? I don't think so. You have to turn the vol up to ear damaging to get it close to vinyl. Other weird things are going on.
Edit: I am tired. Could be a mood thing. I'll give it several listens before I give my final impressions. I'm a big Zep fan, so it's so far disappointing. I hope I am wrong.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 9, 2015 7:09:00 GMT
I'll have a listen to my copy today Ron. I had noticed this with the other Zep recordings plus awful distortion problems.
What makes me laugh on these files is John Bonham's squeaky pedal. It seems to be a feature of their albums. I also heard it squeaking live!!!
Zep 1 is a bit thin with tape hiss. 2 has 'whole Lotta Distortion'. 3 is a bit thin and edgy. 4 ..... As you say.
In spite of what some might think, you could get away with quite a lot of recording artifacts on vinyl. Track 4 on many albums could be dodgy, since that would normally have been the one just before the centre. (And 8) It could be made easier on the ear if track four was a quiet one. Not so easy for track eight though.
Recording engineers would take the position of the track on the final, if it had already been decided so track 4 and 8 could be the dodgy ones, where they (let's say) might take a little less care perhaps. Up the compression and maybe down the level so that it 'sounded' loud.
When I think of all the trouble and expense I went to in the 70's to get past end of side distortion (let alone what was on the master!!), I think what a big waste of time and expense it was.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 9, 2015 13:13:52 GMT
Thanks Ian,
Remember the turntables with the complex tangential tone arm system that kept the cartridge head and stylus at the same angle the whole way across the record? I can't remember the name anymore, Rabco or something? Very expensive for the day. IIRC most of the manufacturers had a, linear tracking model at some point. That last track issue. Makes sense that the last track on the White Album after Helter Skelter is the simpler Long Long Long. (Which I have read took a long, long, long time to record.)
Anyway. I'll give another listen today. It's the deluxe edition remastered by Jimmy Page himself. It was just a bit of a shock as I had listened to early RCA Living Stereo from the mid 50's that were excellent. A couple of by Arthur Fielder, Daphnis et Chloe, Janos Starker. Also Cat Stevens recorded around the same time as LZ IV. Then ...What is going on? With this system you can really hear the quality of the mastering. As well as the master tape. If it's a copy of a copy sort of thing. I have Fleetwood Mac's Rumors on hi res 24/96. Not sure what they did to it either. Boosted the lows on some songs that it pushes the mids down in the mix? Vocals sound recessed, drums and bass overemphasized on some tracks, treble boosted so it's gritty and piercing. Like they thought that was going to make it sound more resolving. Lost the nice balance this album used to have. I'm just guessing compression. Other tracks sound great. Go Your Own Way, Lindsey Buckingham sounds like he is singing from the back wall in places and the backing vocals like they are in the hallway. Perhaps it was always there and I am just, no. I used to listen to this with headphones on a modest turntable system. And on a lot of mid-fi speaker systems. I know it too well. They did something. I wish they would stop trying to "improve" things that don't need it. Kind of ruins the point of transferring them to hi res. Beginning to think I know why I listen to my CD copies of some of these remastered hi res albums instead. Perhaps it is a sub-conscience thing.
I'm just glad they didn't do anything harmful to the Living Stereo series. But sad that experimental stereo recordings sound better than stuff recorded 20 years later. I'll give Zep IV another go and try to just listen and not react. Stereophile listed the 40th anniversary edition of Physical Graffiti as a recommended recording this month. Said it sounded like a re-mix more than a remaster. That's what got me to listen to IV.
Edit: 2nd listen. Looked up Dynamic Range online. Went from a 12 on CD to a 9 on this hi-res version. Ripping my 1984 West German CD to computer.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 9, 2015 15:41:00 GMT
I've had a listen Ron. You are right, it's not brilliant at all.
I checked with th900 and the Focals which both have good sub bass and frankly, there IS none!! Not only that, it's quite compressed. The result is a loud recording with no real bass impact. Works fine on a headphone with a nice mid bass hump basically. That surprises me because one thing I remember when I saw them over the years was the sheer power that John Bonham was capable of. His 'hefty' drumming was exactly that ... Hefty. On this, there is no real weight on the bass drum sound and he seems a bit further back in the mix.
I wonder whether many of these hi res files are actually remixs in reality? They are very good on the whole, but me being what I am, I start to find holes in the sound which actually takes my attention away from the music.
Zep II was quite awful for me in places. Distortion levels are appalling. Like someone who really didn't care mixed it.
On this album, I get the feeling that the drums are also ina room a bit too small for the sound. They seem a bit 'contained' in the second number.
At times, it verges on a little harsh. The opening number has amp hum right at the start. 'The Battle of Evermore' seems a bit weak on vocals. They're a fraction too far back so the mandolins are a bit too dominating imo. Sandy sounds less present than Robert. They both sound as though they're struggling to get through the wall of mandolin sound at times. No real space in the recording and a bit too much reverb maybe on Robert's voice too.
I heard the first performance of Stairway live, a long time ago!! Onthe recording, there's a fraction of distortion at the end on the guitar solo in the right earpiece. It's just set a fraction too high.
Misty Mountain starts with tape hiss.
Going to California has distortion on the vocal line.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 9, 2015 17:01:44 GMT
Whew! You are hearing what I am hearing. Ears are still good. Right now have my 1984 West Germany CD ripped wav files and the hi rez versions loaded into foobar so I can listen to the WAV file then the hi rez right after. Track 1,1 2,2 etc. took some quick notes while listening to hi rez first time thru. "Sounds quite compressed in many places, Rock and Roll especially. Slam missing. Sub-bass missing. Where's the piano? Ambient clues gone. Battle of Evermore-mandolins seem sharp in places. They're Overpowering vocals. Where's Sandy and what's she saying? Robert back in mix too. More mandolin. Harsh at the end, Where's the atmosphere? gone, I'm feeling nothing. Stairway-sound best of "side one". Impact and slam missing at end, guitar riff at end muted, guitar bend at end seems blunted or rolled. No goose bumps. Where's my goose bumps? Misty Mountain-what's missing in the guitar had more grunt. Not hearing the bends well. Keyboard too dominate and sounds off. Everything is loud. Kills the slam. Four sticks- slam is gone on drums because everything else is the same level. Why do I want to keep wanting to turn down one of my fav albums of all time. Distortion in low bass notes cleaned up. Better??? Sub-bass missing as a result?? Levee breaks- just about right. " Going to California- mandolin again some notes too sharp, taking away Robert's expression of the song. Again no emotional reaction. Get that damn mandolin away from my head" Well, I am done with my comparison. Hi-rez does seem more re-mix. Interesting Stereophile says same thing about PG. John B was yes, hefty, drove the song. You compress the music you take the slam and impact away as everything is loud and think they rolled the sub-bass because of the compression. Does that make sense at all? Also, never in my life have I kept wanting to turn the volume down on Led Zep. Up, yes all the time. This version no. I honestly had to take a break after the 2nd listen. Was glad when the last song finished. What does that say? Mostly they took the "atmosphere" away the feeling you get when listening. The emotion is gone. The goose bumps that I almost always get. Levee Breaks, that bluesy feeling is gone. A lot of the space on songs is missing as well. Shows that capturing AND relaying a performance is harder than most folks know. My god, Jimmy Page screwed up his own masterpiece. He needs to let someone else in the chair. I have heard that they did a nice job with Tom Petty's Damn the Torpedos hi-rez. Tried to make it as close to the master tape as possible. I think if the master is really good, then min EQ, no compression, let people know how good pro musicians can sound when there on top of their game. Thanks Ian. I think we both have the same issue. I don't mean to look for holes, but when you have spent years playing music and especially with others you can't help it. You've trained you hearing to do it. OK-I'm listening to the CD version I can hear Sandy very well. She really gave the song the eeriness it has in places with all that minor key stuff. Oh, and the goosebumps are back!
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 9, 2015 17:55:01 GMT
Interesting about Sandy. On the original vinyl version, I remember the thickness of tone that she had in her voice. It seems watered down on the digital copy. I saw her with Fairport Convention way back and they still hark back to her nowadays. She had a helluva'n impact on them and her death really affected them greatly. Simon, who plays guitar for them still gets emotional anout her.
The vinyl really captured her voice well, but these digital copies don't.
Plus the fact that the digital copies are showing the age and tape/recording artifiacts terribly.
Funny that you brought it up. I had spoken to Javier about those mixes in particular; especially with regards to Zep II which I felt was a bit of a mess as well. The digital hi res copies don't seem to introduce the 'space' and openness that I have heard from so many hi res and dsd files, although the curse of compression does mostly remain.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 9, 2015 18:19:40 GMT
I think that is the most striking thing the loss of space. Funny last night when I was listening for the first time, I thought wait, isn't this a duet? Her voice is so lost in the mix with Robert's for a second I thought he had overdubbed, but then I heard her. But something was wrong from the first song. For me I think how I know when they have screw up something is when I don't react to the music the same way. About the space thing. The Village Vanguard recordings of Bill Evans Trio have incredible space on vinyl , CD, and even more so on the hi-rez version. In fact the hi-res versions makes me jump sometimes because I think I'm hearing something in the room. So what's the deal with some of these younger recordings? The Vanguard ones were done with portable equipment and mics hidden under the table, I have heard. Record execs probably. You would know much better than I. I'm still convinced that's why we still haven't heard what's close to the best sound from the Beatles catalog. You can hear the potential in a lot of places on the LOVE soundtrack. I'm betting if you could hear the master tapes they would sound so much better than anything out there for sale. The music business really causes a lot of its own problems it seems to me.
Was going to buy the Physical Graffiti hi res, but now I'm not sure I trust Stereophile's opinion.
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 9, 2015 18:32:52 GMT
I have Physical Graffiti here, so I'll have a listen. The Zep recordings do seem a bit off tbh. I think two and four went wrong quite badly.
Problem is that we, as people with expensive gear are in a minority and the business just makes recordings that need to market well and do the job for the majority. Many non audiophile people would choose the compressed version over non compressed, just because it's louder. Unfortunately, people in marketing know this and so kind of dictate the rules to the people who really do know but want to keep their jobs!!
After that awful album that Blur produced a few years back, where compression was nuts, I noticed that they're still doing it on their most recent album. Just awful really.
I'll have a listen to Physical to see what it's like.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 9, 2015 18:53:14 GMT
I have Physical Graffiti here, so I'll have a listen. The Zep recordings do seem a bit off tbh. I think two and four went wrong quite badly. Problem is that we, as people with expensive gear are in a minority and the business just makes recordings that need to market well and do the job for the majority. Many non audiophile people would choose the compressed version over non compressed, just because it's louder. Unfortunately, people in marketing know this and so kind of dictate the rules to the people who really do know but want to keep their jobs!! After that awful album that Blur produced a few years back, where compression was nuts, I noticed that they're still doing it on their most recent album. Just awful really. I'll have a listen to Physical to see what it's like. Thanks mate. Maybe save some money, and my ears. If only we could get people to listen to what good music sounds like I am sure they would be hooked. I did a stereo demo as part of the sound unit in physics. You should have seen their faces. They had never heard a stereo image before. Used some cheap powered speakers and a $59 (£38) DVD player. Then let them hook up there phones as the speakers have adaptor and input for that. Then I was shocked that most of their songs had stereo mixing. Good mixing as well. Interesting how many had old 1950's and 60's stuff in their libraries as well as new songs. I mean, come on a 17 year old with Ella Fitzgerald and Simon and Garfunkel on their playlist? Hey there is hope. Edit: Ian just read a review of PG. In it he says Page mastered the vinyl to have a warm fat bass to emphasize the bands heaviness. "Naturally this is lost on digital formats". What?? So digital recordings can't be mastered for a warm fat bass sound? Because um..... So that warm fat bass I hear on Random Access Memories is my imagination?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 9, 2015 21:13:20 GMT
Exactly Ron. The statement about lacking bass on digital is absolute bollocks. I'm not being funny, but I don't really think Page would be a good choice for mixing either tbh. He's nearly deaf I think.
I taught youngsters about sound for a short while. I know what you mean when they first detect an 'image'!!
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 9, 2015 22:13:32 GMT
He's apparently done all the recent remasters. With all the loud sound he has been expoused to and being 71 as well, even George Martin had to hang it at some point. Have you given this a try yet? I did. Had a harder time with the newer music. link
It's a test to see how well people can pick the WAV version of the same song. Not sure how they can do this online and be accurate.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 10, 2015 13:57:41 GMT
Well, listening to Physical Graffiti isn't really much better, Ron. It lacks depth and to me, seems a little distant in comparison to better quality recordings. It's very sharp and clear but lacks any deep bass, so it sounds a bit thin tbh. Great shame. (Again, distortion is an issue)
With those tests, it also depends on exactly what you're listening to. Some types of music seem to point out flaws while on others, you wouldn't be so aware. For instance, to exaggerate ...
If you listened to a harpsichord piece, you wouldn't be aware of a lack of bass but you would pick up perhaps artifacts in the treble. Add a bass instrument and those artifacts could be covered over.
I don't think detecting differences is so clear cut. We easily latch onto distortion or tonal differences, but it's not so easy with say, 'chirupping' in the treble that is smeared over very often, because of other sounds in the recording.
Sense of space can sometimes give it away, but then again, if the recording is a DI type of thing, then space is created artificially and not always as subtle.
I've kind of given up worrying about format and resolution, as long as it sounds ok. In most cases, I am preferring DSD files but whether that's because I know or I am hearing differences, I'm not really sure. To me, with a good recording, it's the sense of 'space' that I get, but then I have all the Zeps in FLaC and they're crappy really in terms of bass production and noise. Not only that, but there's no real sense of acoustic in them either. Great pity.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 10, 2015 15:51:12 GMT
Thanks for checking Ian. It is a great pity. Good thing I have the older CD's. At least we know someone could re-master them properly. I'm sure the masters have been transferred to hi-rez files so they are safe. But I'll be deaf by the time it happens. Too bad John B. Is gone. He would have told Page he was deaf. Why would you turn down a great drummers sound? The more I thought about it, the more I realized he is moving his stuff further up in the mix. Or am I off? And where is the distortion coming from? On the master? And Stereophile? Going on about it so glowingly.
I listened to Zep IV 3 times after my "experiment" was over. The CD version. What a great album. Band is at their peak. I think today it will be Physical Graffiti day. Take myself back to college. I found out 7 of the tracks on PG were from unreleased cuts from III, IV, and Houses of the Holy. You probably know that.
I tried the test. Neil, the piano, and the solo vocal were easy. The new stuff was so compressed it was impossible. But it did give the SeNNator and HD650's a good workout in the sub-bass. They really can go low now. Too bad the HD800's can't be filter corrected. I think in the end it's mostly mastering and a well designed DAC, not file format. Although I have rarely heard a good 128 Kbps file.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 10, 2015 17:54:42 GMT
Unfortunately, the distortion could be on the original. Might not have been quite so jarring on vinyl I think. Modern systems just pull it out like a laser.
Yes, unfortunately, the guts seem to be missing, but then again, it might not be there, at least recorded properly on the original. Unfortunately, if it's missing in the first plCe, trying to just plant it on can lead to all kinds of problems.
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 10, 2015 18:30:12 GMT
Unfortunately, the distortion could be on the original. Might not have been quite so jarring on vinyl I think. Modern systems just pull it out like a laser. Yes, unfortunately, the guts seem to be missing, but then again, it might not be there, at least recorded properly on the original. Unfortunately, if it's missing in the first plCe, trying to just plant it on can lead to all kinds of problems. I'm listening to PG ripped from the Diament CD mastering right now. As close to the vinyl at least as I remember it. There's space and you can hear the studio acoustic on the tracks where it exists. John B's drums are there. Guts are there. Nice balance to everything. So far no distortion that I can hear. Wish they had let him have a go at the hi res. In My Time of Dying sounds very good IMHO. But left out "cough" at the end.
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