solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 31, 2015 16:04:30 GMT
Its a bit like selling the same album again but now on 'blu-spec' or XRCD. Give it a nicer leaflet inside or a nicer box and you can ask a higher price, many will buy the album all over again and be happier.
You will have to pay E 400.- extra for an additional cable and a little piece of plastic inside the driver magnet hole.
FWIR it sounds the same as the HD800 but less piercing. Still elevated treble and lean on the bass compared to HD650 etc.
That videio is hilarious. Kuddos for the guy having the idea, and adding the subtitles
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2015 17:08:09 GMT
That video is priceless. Probably not too far off the mark either!
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jello
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Post by jello on Mar 8, 2016 22:55:05 GMT
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 9, 2016 7:14:33 GMT
Yes, I read that. How it sparked off a 'purity' verses 'musicality' idea as well. He prefers the 800s although it introduces harmonics or 'distortions' in order to warm its sound up. It leaves anyone buying one having to think carefully about their rather expensive choice. Whether to choose the more exacting 800 or 800s with its harmonics .......
Does your mind dictate what you SHOULD buy or do you go with what you might prefer with more warmth? Difficult one really.
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Post by jello on Mar 9, 2016 11:13:36 GMT
Yes it is a difficult one and I think Tyll has put the cat amongst the pigeons somewhat. A very well written piece though and kudos to him for having the balls and integrity to publish it...I'm sure many others wouldn't. Gotta keep those sponsors happy
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Mar 9, 2016 13:03:30 GMT
The added second harmonics is exactly what tubes do in the G1217 amps. Only for the amps it is output level dependent where in the HD800S it is probably always the case.
2nd order distortion points to an uneven 'load' between the rear and the front of the driver.
The S version thus has somewhat reduced treble (not as much as the Kameleon filter does) and they added harmonics to raise the 'bass level' a bit. In the Kameleon the bass level is also raised but not by adding harmonics.
Like Tyll mentioned, the HD800 with EQ sounds better than the HD800S. In this case he means EQ in the bass area.
The HD800 on the Kameleon sounds excellent (more sub bass) with a tight and plentyful bass and the treble excess is gone. It has gone from overly bright and slightly bass-shy to warm and smooth. Still detailed but NOT hyper detailed which is what some like, but I don't.
The HD800(S) isn't for everyone though. A hard to recommend headphone.
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Post by timjthomas on Mar 9, 2016 22:19:42 GMT
Sounds like it's an easy headphone to recommend when paired with the Kameleon filter module. Is the HD800 your "go to" headphone with the Kameleon?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 10, 2016 8:56:12 GMT
I think the hd800 might have been the one I'd have bought taking into consideration what else is at the same level of pricing. I guess at that level, you might want 'accuracy' moreso and turn to less expensive options for anything else.
I can imagine the 'spaciousness' that so many describe and that is a rare thing to have in any headphone. It's just getting past the tonality which the Kameleon addrsses. Since the Sennheiser has good drivers, it probably takes eq well.
It is a headphone that deserves its own dedicated amp really.
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jello
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Post by jello on Mar 10, 2016 10:34:57 GMT
It sounds like the Kameleon does a great job of knocking the HD800 into shape.
It's a headphone that's always interested me but not enough that I think I could live with it in stock form. Frans, aside from the filter do you still use some tissue paper and did you have any success in lessening the ringing at 6kHz you mentioned earlier in the thread?
Sorry if these question have been asked many times before (I've not really been falling the Kameleon's development) but do you have a rough idea of when the pre-built desktop version might be available to buy and how much it'll likely sell for?
Appreciate that's a lot of questions for one morning. Sorry about that and thanks!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Mar 11, 2016 20:13:31 GMT
Funnily enough I have 'times' where I like some headphones best even when others are actually 'better'. Lately I have only been listening to the (modified) HD662-EVO which is great directly from the X3. Not better than HD800 on Kameleon but more fun and easy to listen to. To get the most from a recording the HD800 seems the way to go. It should be noted that the stock HD800 sounds nothing like the HD800 on the Kameleon.
The 6kHz ringing is lowered by the Kameleon filter but still there. I could experiment with the Helmholtz resonator as found in the HD800S but that only addresses the 6kHz area. It has more issues than just the 6kHz problem so the resonator would only partly solve a problem but could help with the 6kHz ringing. Strange part is the NH also has ringing (at 5kHz) but at a much lower level relative to the mids. I suspect that 5kHz ringing may be responsible for the lack of resolution the NH has. The HD800 also having a similar resonance doesn't seem to have a lacking resolution at all, in fact the opposite. Granted with the treble peak removed it isn't the typical 'hyper detail monster' any more but slightly more detailed than HD650 (on Kameleon) but in a different way. Hard to explain in what way that is though.
I should contact Javier and ask him to look into the price of a fully built version. All the needed data and PCB's are there.
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Post by timjthomas on Mar 11, 2016 22:16:27 GMT
Interesting post Frans. So the question I have is, if you had to choose one headphone, what would it be?
I am thinking about getting a new set of headphones. I have a set of Paradox, that I love. But closed headphones tend to aggravate my tinnitus. So I am thinking of selling my Paradox.
I have an HD580 and an K701. The Kameleon will address the K701 issues. I like the HD580's, but they are not as engaging as the Paradox.
I'd love to get a set of headphones that are open and as fun and engaging as the Paradox. Any recommendations? I was hoping the HD800 with Kameleon filter would be the end game for me. But I'm not sure -- even with the filter, it sounds like the HD800 might be too "clinical".
The other option is to stick with the 580 & K701 and use the money from the Paradox to pick up a DAC.
Thanks for anyone that has thoughts or suggestions.
-Tim
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Post by jello on Mar 11, 2016 23:27:52 GMT
Thanks Frans.
Interesting that the ringing on the NH and HD800 appears to manifest itself in different ways. It would be nice if it did make the NH a bit more resolving as that's not its strongest point.
Like you I'll regularly opt for a headphone that's fun, musical and easy to listen to over one that's technically better. I think Ian feels the same.
Mind you I would quite like to have something 'hyper detailed' in my collection just to give me a bit more 'insight' into recordings. But with many recordings I suspect that may not make for a particularly enjoyable listen.
It would be good to get an idea of price as it sounds like a used HD800 and Kameleon could make for a very good combination. Second hand HD800 prices seem very keen at present.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Mar 12, 2016 9:57:17 GMT
Tim, personaIly I think the K701 is one of those headphones that is good at enhancing tinnitus. Luckily, we don't really have fanboys on this site so I'm able to say what I feel!! I can get the same thing from Grados too and I think that it moght be to do with the treble peaks that they both have. I tried very hard to like both but ultimately, the lack of real deep bass and that peak eventually made me give up with them. They're ok at very low volume and sound more natural to my ears like that. That's good for speech but doesn't invove you so much with music, since you kind of lose its impact, which is not so important with speech reproduction, where you just need clarity in the mids and lower treble. If the Kameleon knocks the peak down, it may well solve the problem but from what I'm seeing from Frans, the HD800 is extremely good with a Kameleon and imo, it would be streets ahead of the K701. He is brutally honest about headphones but also considers the effect that they have on the 'portrayal' of music, in spite of that objectiveness that he has. I'm very much the same myself since I am also aware how easily I am able to adpapt to almost anything as far as headphones go. For some reason, my eyes tell me I'm listening from capsules and that's what I hear. A tiny little room, trying to reproduce bass. That's also what stops me fiddling with headphones since I can't measure or see what effects I'm having on the sound. I don't agree with peoplle when they say that measurements are for deaf people. They are an indication of what is really going on so that things can be tracked way more closely than the ear can easily detract so Frans 'tracks' his progress quite meticulously with headphone modifications and finally uses his ears to determine whether it portrays music well. I'm lucky in that he also seems to hear in a similar way to me and my ideas of what is a good headphone sound, so if he says that the hd800 loses its tinnitus inducing peak, loses a little of what he felt was 'false' detail due to the peak and still is slightly better than an hd650, then I believe him. My feeling is that it is extremely good and perhaps, the hd800 might soon start to lose its perceived value due to the added harmonic content in the hd800S which has been put there in order to warm it up. To me, a great combination would perhaps be an HD800S with a Kameleon. That way, you wouldn't get the tinnitus inducing peak and have a sound that is way ahead of the K701 in terms of timbre and openness, which the hd800 seems to do extremely well. I also think that the combination of the two would make for excellent lower to mid volume level listening, which would supply a real feeling of spaciousness. I personally find generally that loud volume headphones need to have the treble rolled away. It's a combination that I would seriously consider myself I think, since Frans has a habit of 'understating' what he has done. Now I need to save some money...... I've talked myself into it!!!!
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Mar 12, 2016 10:15:26 GMT
Interesting post Frans. So the question I have is, if you had to choose one headphone, what would it be? I am thinking about getting a new set of headphones. I have a set of Paradox, that I love. But closed headphones tend to aggravate my tinnitus. So I am thinking of selling my Paradox. I have an HD580 and an K701. The Kameleon will address the K701 issues. I like the HD580's, but they are not as engaging as the Paradox. I'd love to get a set of headphones that are open and as fun and engaging as the Paradox. Any recommendations? I was hoping the HD800 with Kameleon filter would be the end game for me. But I'm not sure -- even with the filter, it sounds like the HD800 might be too "clinical". The other option is to stick with the 580 & K701 and use the money from the Paradox to pick up a DAC. Thanks for anyone that has thoughts or suggestions. -Tim If I had to choose one headphone and money were no object (keeping the max at $ 2000.-) then I would probably go for the ETHER. However, I got my HD800 for E 650.- which is half the price of the ETHER. Than you have to add a Kameleon as well. Don't care for the stock HD800, totally not 'musical' but more of a dry clinical thing. The HD800 is the only headphone that I have that triggers tinnitus (a beep tone of approx 6kHz that lasts for about 30 seconds). This even happens at low listening levels. With a Kameleon the HD800 isn't a 'tight-bass (not bassy), analytical, dry detail monstrocity' but is warm, has deep subwoofer type bass and has 'normal' detail level (like say the HD580/HD600) but slightly different. When push comes to shove the HD800 (on Kameleon) is slightly more 'musical' and has slightly better 'instrument separation' and somewhat wider stage than the HD650 on a Kameleon. I enjoy the HD800 on a Kameleon slightly more than the HD650 on Kameleon. The latter, I know, is more accurate and faithfull and more 'extended' than the HD800 BUT the HD800 is slightly more fun this way. So when the max amount of funds is approx E 2000.- : ETHER + FiiO X3 when the max amount of funds is approx E 1000.- : (second hand) HD800 + Kameleon + FiiO X3 when the max amount of funds is approx E 600.- : (second hand) HD650 + Kameleon + FiiO X3 when the max amount of funds is approx E 150.- : HD662-EVO (modified) + FiiO X3 when the max amount of funds is approx E 100.- : KSC75 + FiiO M3 (or Sansa player) A while back this list may have been quite different and when money were no object at all maybe the HE-6 or HE-1000 may have been my go to cans. I just don't want to spent a fortune just to get that slightly higher 'performance' and run the risk of faulty drivers (HE-1000) Of course this is all based on my personal tonal preference. This tonal preference is slightly raised (sub-bass) and good clarity with good treble extension/separation/air. It should be noted that when something measures flat on my rig it would measure 'downwards / speakerlike' sloping on rigs like those from SBAF. Flat on my plots = Flat to me tonally as I have incorporated a mild (sub-bass) drop-off. When comparing measurements (up to 1kHz) with those of others, my measurements come very close to those of Sonarworks, Tyll's and GE but nothing like those from SBAF/CS. So my 'flat' is other ones 'raised bass'.
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Post by solderdude on Mar 12, 2016 10:34:11 GMT
Interesting that the ringing on the NH and HD800 appears to manifest itself in different ways. It would be nice if it did make the NH a bit more resolving as that's not its strongest point. It's just a theory of mine that the lack of resolution in the NH might be due to the ringing, it is one of the most treble extended headphones I measured aside from the HE400i. The 400i also has a (smaller and higher up) peak that is easily EQ'ed but not removed but sounds excellent (very warmish/lush/luxury) on the Kameleon with plenty of air and separation. Measurement wise the NH should also be fast and highly detailed when the bass has been equalised but as you also found out ... it doesn't. Maybe it's the ringing, maybe it is the 'jagged' frequency response (dips followed by peaks) which is seen in the CSD as well. Possibly that is (part ?) of the lack of 'super detail' of the NH which is nicely masked by the huge lows. Mind you I would quite like to have something 'hyper detailed' in my collection just to give me a bit more 'insight' into recordings. But with many recordings I suspect that may not make for a particularly enjoyable listen. It would be good to get an idea of price as it sounds like a used HD800 and Kameleon could make for a very good combination. Second hand HD800 prices seem very keen at present. A used HD800 on a Kameleon is not 'hyper detailed' any more. The hyper detail is caused by the raised treble part which is removed by the Kameleon. Still, the detail level is slightly higher, or should I say accentuated/presented in a different way, than HD650 on Kameleon. One of the few headphones I heard that has great detail and is easy to drive is the ETHER. The newer ones seem to have better bass quality which was the only reason I didn't buy it. Bass of the newer versions is lower but tighter (closer to stock HD800 levels it would seem) 2nd hand HD800 + Kameleon is slightly better than HD650 on Kameleon.
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