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Post by chinook9 on Dec 22, 2014 0:10:49 GMT
Does anyone know of any DIY DAC kits that provide instructions similar to the Garage1217 kits?
I would like to build myself an excellent DAC but I have not had any luck finding one I thought I understood enough to build.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Dec 22, 2014 0:43:19 GMT
There are tons of DIY DACs, what kind of budget do you have in mind? Bear in mind that most don't come in full kit like J's amps. Few provide case, many don't provide power supply or 'transport' (as in USB adapter which has to be purchased separately) and some don't even provide analogue output section.
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Post by chinook9 on Dec 22, 2014 0:58:37 GMT
There are tons of DIY DACs, what kind of budget do you have in mind? Bear in mind that most don't come in full kit like J's amps. Few provide case, many don't provide power supply or 'transport' (as in USB adapter which has to be purchased separately) and some don't even provide analogue output section. Thank you for the reply Javier. I have been looking at DACs in $500+ area so I would go that much, or even more, if I thought the results would justify it. I could handle the case, however, I would need the power supplies and USB adapter or guidance on what type to purchase. I believe I could figure out how to install the power supplies and USB adapters but knowing the ones to buy for best performance is beyond my abilities. I would want to spend enough to make it an excellent, and hopefully my last, DAC. On the other hand, if you believe the $500+ could best be spent on a ready-made DAC I wouldn't mind that either.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Dec 22, 2014 7:30:09 GMT
For that kind of money, if you want ready made the iFi Audio DSD Micro ($499) would be a very nice choice and is the 1st option that comes to mind. It can play anything you can dream of and has very nice features like selectable filters, USB isolation from PC, integrated decent headphone amp, etc. making it nicely future proof and extremely flexible.
In case you want to go DIY, an interesting kit is Twisted Pear Audio's Buffalo IIISE but even though it has a manual and there is only a little soldering involved, I'm not sure is a beginner's project, besides, depending on enclosure and desired level of finish it could end up costing well over$ 800 (some people go crazy with fancy and expensive stuff). Help to put it together can be had in their DIYAudio.com section or at their own support forum, I could help too and a friend of mine has built quite a few for other friends.
Needless to say, there are many cheaper alternatives to both and if you want I'll give you some more affordable choices that maybe are not as flexible but perform equally good.
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Post by chinook9 on Dec 22, 2014 14:15:08 GMT
Thank you Javier. I will do some research and figure out the next step.
Edit: Pretty much all I play is CDs ripped to FLAC, no DSD or anything HD. Also only USB.
Does this change your suggestions?
Edit #2: I am really intrigued by the Buffalo IIISE. I have started studying "The Buffalo III Integration Guide." Its very well done but I will have to do quite a bit of reading to determine if I can understand the relationships of the various components, which ones to buy, and how to attach/assemble them. If nothing else, I will learn quite a bit by studying the documentation and the various threads on the DIY forums.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Dec 25, 2014 11:12:15 GMT
If you need any help with the BIIISE just ask, I think I can answer most of your questions.
Personally I quite agree with Frans in that once a certain performance level is achieved the differences between DACs is, at best, very slight. In a DAC I look for ultimate engineering and measurable performance rather than huge differences in sound, also format flexibility and choice of settings. From a strictly objective POV you should probably stick to whatever you already have as it plays the files you have just fine and the differences with a better one will not be that great once they are level matched. However, if I could afford a BIIISE or better (for example Acko's ES9012 kit) you can be 100% sure have one, perhaps even more than one DAC I'd like to have one pure DSD DAC like Jussi's discreet Sigma-Delta and a true multibit DAC based on the PCM1704 or TDA1541A S2. Very much like a car collector, a small utilitarian will take you anywhere but I'd buy (if I could) a Mercedes E63 AMG 4Matic for the better engineering no matter how much overkill it is.
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Post by chinook9 on Dec 25, 2014 16:47:00 GMT
Feliz Navidad Javier. I hope you are having an excellent day.
I really appreciate your willingness to help with this.
I don’t have enough experience with DACs to know what I want, but I don’t mind buying and trying a few until I get a couple that I want to keep. Commercially made DACs obtained at a reasonably good price can be sold without too much of a loss. I like doing kits but the resale is a lot tougher and money will be lost if I decide to sell it. That is is not a show-stopper, however.
Right now I have an old Mobile Fidelity V-DAC, a Taiwanese $259 Valeb custom Teradak (TDA1543 x8) NOS DAC, Teac UD-HO1 (to be sold) , and Marantz HD-DAC1 (probably to be returned). The Marantz goes back because I just got a killer deal that I couldn’t pass up on a Burson Soloist and I don’t want the Marantz ($700) solely for the DAC. I have a Sunrise II but will replace it with an Ember, primarily for the increased power which I value. Hopefully Jeremy’s new linear power supply goes with the Ember.
The BIIISE appeals to me but I'm not sure I have the ability to build it. I have read a lot on the BIIISE DIY threads and I come away feeling incompetent. The participants in those threads are generally very knowledgeable and the postings assume knowledge that I don't have so I don’t learn a lot. This doesn't mean I couldn't assemble the BIIISE and put it together, but if I make one or more mistakes I would probably have difficulty with the communications required to troubleshoot the problem(s).
I will read more on the BIIISE and on Acko’s ES9012 kit and work towards a go/no go decision on the kits.
Also, how close do you live to Alcobendas. I lived near there (El Encinar de Los Reyes) 1960-63. It was great place to be a high school student. We used to buy liquor at a place called La Moraleja (not sure what that is now) and go to the bullfights on the cobblestoned square in Alcobendas. It appears that this area has changed dramatically.....and I've changed a little too.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Dec 25, 2014 21:08:26 GMT
Either the Teac or the Marantz are very good DACs can't see why you don't want to keep them, even the V-DAC is not that bad. On the other hand, at least from an technical POV NOS is not a good idea no matter how some people praise them, they "could" make some sense with high sampling rates (>=176.4KHz) but certainly not the best idea with RBCD stuff.
Buffalos hold their value reasonably well and usually are sold quickly at DIYAudio.com but I guess not as quick as stuff shifts hands at HeadFi. They are easy to put together, sort of like a meccano kit with one module for each function.
If you haven't seen Alcobendas/San Sebastian de los Reyes since the early 60s and you saw it now you wouldn't believe it was the same place. All of Madrid has changed so much since then it is not the city you knew any more, in some cases it has changed for the better and in some for the worse. BTW, I was born in 68 so you were here 8 years earlier than me! I live and have always lived to the opposite side of Madrid (west), I'm almost 40Km away from Alcobendas but I've been there quite a few times and have relatives who live in the Moraleja residential area so I know the area a little.
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Post by chinook9 on Dec 26, 2014 15:33:15 GMT
Hello Javier
I will compare the DACs of Teac and the Marantz with the V-DAC while I continue to research the BIIISE and the Acko ES9012 kits.
The Buffalo III Integration Guide is well done and provides a "Bill of Materials" for the stereo DAC. Still have to look more on the Acko kits documentation.
Have a Happy New Year!
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Post by chinook9 on Dec 28, 2014 16:37:08 GMT
Hi Javier
I haven't been able to find much documentation on the ackoDAC but I sent acko a PM to see if he can guide me to what's available.
Things are looking pretty good on the BIIISE front. I would want to keep the build as simple as possible, using only USB, and still maintain the SQ. If it seems that it would be easy to do I would probably add Toslink and Coax inputs. It looks like for the basic USB build I would acquire the following Twisted Pear components:
Buffalo IIISE DAC Module AVCC Dual Shunt Regulator Module Trident 3.3V Shunt Regulator Module (2 of these) Trident 1.2V Shunt Regulator Module IVY-III Complete Kit (or Legato not sure which) Placid HD 2.1 Power Supply Kit (2.5-inch heatsinks) Placid HD 2.1 Bipolar Power Supply Kit (2.5-inch heatsinks) (incl w/IVY-III) 9V+9V (30VA) Power Transformer 15V+15V (50VA) Power Transformer USB Receiver Module (Assembled and Tested)
I am not sure if the IVY or Legato would be best for my build. I believe I read a recommendation somewhere in the guide but haven't been able to find it again. I will. Also not sure about the 2.5 inch heat sinks. Right now I'm going through the guide to reviewing the layout of the various components to see if I can understand how to set up the boards (various adjustments) and the connections between the boards.. Leonvb did an amazing job on the guide.
If you have any idea on the IVY or Legato, please let me know.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Dec 28, 2014 18:01:04 GMT
Both boards do the same function but using a different approach. The basic difference between the Legato and the IVY is that the former uses discreet components (provided you can do with balanced output, else it uses an opamp for BAL to SE conversion) while the latter is opamp based. Which one is better? well... depends on who you ask, some people think integrated chips are evil and prefer the discreet route. I don't. The IVY measures better and has stronger output at 2.1Vrms whereas the Legato in stock form tops at 1.5Vrms though changing a few resistors it can be upped to 2.0Vrms at the expense of increased distortion. Also the IVY has much better PSRR and CMRR than the Legato so it is more immune to noise coming from the power supply. Personally I'd go for the IVY. The basic kit to build the DAC would include: - Buffalo-IIISE 2-Channel DAC(1) Buffalo-IIISE 2-Channel DAC Module (Assembled and Tested) (1) AVCC Dual Shunt Regulator Module (Assembled and Tested) (2) Trident 3.3V Shunt Regulator Module (Assembled and Tested) (1) Trident 1.2V Shunt Regulator Module (Assembled and Tested) at $379- Placid HD 2.1 Power Supply Kit -> (2-inch heat-sinks) or (2.5-inch heat-sinks) depending on available clearance when stacking boards at $60 - IVY-III Kit + One Placid HD BP Kit Combo[1] IVY-III Kit [1] Placid HD BP Power Supply Kit at $169- 9V+9V (30VA) Power Transformerat $23- 15V+15V (50VA) Power Transformerat $27Forget the Twistedpear USB module, it uses ancient technology and it is seriously outdated. You need to look for newer/better alternatives like any of the following: - luckit.biz/product/waveio/- amanero.com/- www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/69-isolated-xmos-dsd-dxd-384khz-high-quality-usb-to-i2sdsd-pcb-with-ultralow-noise-regulator.html- www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/66-384khz-asynchronous-usb-to-i2sspdif-cm6631a-pcb.html#/cm6631a_option-cm6631a_pcb- jlsounds.com/i2soverusb.htmlThe Acko kits are similar to the Twistedpear audio stuff but uses much higher spec'ed materials, components and probably better layout and design the problem is that they are way costlier so you can end easily spending twice as much on a comparable system (if not more) made by him. He also offers plenty of tweaking options like re-clocking boards, etc. An important part that is not included in the Buffalo kits that I believe is very interesting (though not "essential" and can be added at any time later on) is a micro controller to configure the internal registers of the DAC chip and use it to its full potential: 32 bit digital volume control, selectable digital filters, etc. If you decide to start this project I'll be glad to help with this part too.
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Post by chinook9 on Dec 30, 2014 7:15:15 GMT
Thank you Javier.
It sounds as though the Acko is out of consideration. I expect the BIIISE is as good as I could expect and I doubt I would want to spend even more for flexibility that I don't have the knowledge to use.
The optional parts of the BIIISE sound interesting. I'll also read up on them as time permits.
It appears the Amanero is a good bet for the USB module. It get good reviews and I have read about them being used with the BIIISE. The price is pretty good too.
I really appreciate your offer of help. I expect I could need a lot. I still have more reading to do then I'll come up with a few questions before I make a go/no go decision.
Happy New Year!
Brian
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Post by chinook9 on Jan 4, 2015 3:56:45 GMT
Happy New Year Javier!
I have studied the Buffalo III Integration guide and a number of DIYAudio and TwistedPearAudio threads. I didn't learn a lot from the threads, because they are generally above my head, however, I found a few and some pictures that helped me understand how the modules fit together.
Assuming I would assemble the DAC with the components you listed previously and the Amanero USB to I2S board, I came up with the following questions.
1. Are the Buffalo IIISE board defaults are set for stereo?
2. Is the Buffalo IIISE with IVYIII decent as a headphone amplifier? Is it worth installing the volume pot?
3. Would you recommend leaving the IVYIII output at default settings?
4. Based on my reading, USB, when done right, is better than S/PDIF. If so,is there is any point in adding the S/PDIF input module?
5. Do I need to add a firmware controller in IC8 for my “simple” build? At this point I don't know why I would need it or how I would program it.
6. Is there anything on the BIIISE board that needs to be changed to use the Amanero?
7. Does the Amanero output TTL PCM and TTL DSD? Is it better to use connectors for these connections or just solder them?
8. What is the preferred method of providing the 3.3 volts to the Amanero board?
9 On the Placid power supplies I would prefer to replace VR1 and VR2 with resistors. Are the required resistor values known for my “simple” build? Does using the Amanero change these values?
I appreciate your help with this. I don’t want to be a burden, however, and I can post some of these questions over on one of the DIY Audio or TwistedPearAudio threads if needed.
Thanks again.
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jan 4, 2015 11:12:59 GMT
Happy New Year Javier! I have studied the Buffalo III Integration guide and a number of DIYAudio and TwistedPearAudio threads. I didn't learn a lot from the threads, because they are generally above my head, however, I found a few and some pictures that helped me understand how the modules fit together. Assuming I would assemble the DAC with the components you listed previously and the Amanero USB to I2S board, I came up with the following questions. 1. Are the Buffalo IIISE board defaults are set for stereo? Yes they are, that is the main difference between the regular BIII and the BIIISE. SE stands for Stereo Edition. 2. Is the Buffalo IIISE with IVYIII decent as a headphone amplifier? Is it worth installing the volume pot? The IVY's output uses OPA1632 opamps for output which can output 150mA and by default the IVY provides 2Vrms, if that is enough will depend on headphones used (Frans published a table with all calculations at our blog). So it could be done but I don't think its is the best way to use it, an additional amp is strongly recommended. The volume control is also and mainly intended for using the DAC as a very high quality preamp (no channel imbalance, 0 noise and no loss of resolution as it operates in 32bit), this could be into a speaker amp (no pre) or an amp, speakers or headphones, with the vol to the max and let the DAC control output. It can be added at any time so you can leave out at first and add later if need arises. 3. Would you recommend leaving the IVYIII output at default settings? Yes, 2Vrms is industry standard and gives best compatibilty. 4. Based on my reading, USB, when done right, is better than S/PDIF. If so,is there is any point in adding the S/PDIF input module? The integration guide is the same for both versions of the BIII (reg. and SE) so it may be a little confusing some times. The SE doesn't need the SPDIF module unless you want multiple SPDIF inputs. For a single SPDIF input there are two headers on the board and you would just need to connect two wires to an SPDIF RCA connector on the casis, as simple as that. You can have both SPDIF and I2S from USB, switching between inputs can be done by using a jumper, a toggle switch or with a remote micro controller (software). 5. Do I need to add a firmware controller in IC8 for my “simple” build? At this point I don't know why I would need it or how I would program it. That "firmware" chip comes factory installed. It provides basic functionality for the two on board switches to work (SW1 & SW2, see guide pages 42-44). 6. Is there anything on the BIIISE board that needs to be changed to use the Amanero? Nothing at all but as the Amanero does not include an onboard isolator adding an external is VERYstrongly recommended. Here is a free PCB dor building one: www.diyinhk.com/shop/audio-kits/19-amanero-isolator-bare-pcb.htmlYou'd just need to buy a few components and insert it between teh Amanero and the Buffalo. Parts are not expensive but they are all rather small surface parts so if you are not sure you can solder them it'll be best to find some help. 7. Does the Amanero output TTL PCM and TTL DSD? Is it better to use connectors for these connections or just solder them? All the controllers I linked, including the Amanero, output TTL levels and fully compatible with Buffalo. Ideally I2S or DSD connections should be as short as possible, the shorter the better, and try never to exceed 10cm (4in) or problems may arise. The way to connect the Amanero, isolator and DAC will very much depend on how you plan to stack/connect them inside the chasis but soldered is usually better than headers. The BIIISE sports uFL connectors which are very convenient and high quality (shielded and controlled impedance) and cables can be ordered from Twistedpear at the same time that the DAC for $6 (I'd get some spares just in case..) but unfortunately neither the Amanero nor the isolator board can use them. 8. What is the preferred method of providing the 3.3 volts to the Amanero board? You can use the 3.3V from the I2C header on the BII3SE board to provide 3.3V to the Amanero. It is what almost everyone uses when not giving it its own external PS. Most projects start as very simple kits and gradually evolve from there as the itch to tweak kicks in and funds allows. 9 On the Placid power supplies I would prefer to replace VR1 and VR2 with resistors. Are the required resistor values known for my “simple” build? Does using the Amanero change these values? That is not a good idea, VR1 and VR2 are for fine adjusting output voltage and current and as it depends on load, transformer, etc. better to have that flexibility. They are adjusted with a flat head screw driver and it is very easy to do it, don't worry about them. Once you get the idea it takes a few seconds to adjust but you do need a decent multimeter. I appreciate your help with this. I don’t want to be a burden, however, and I can post some of these questions over on one of the DIY Audio or TwistedPearAudio threads if needed. Thanks again. On the contrary, I don't get the chance to talk about DACs over here, they don't get much attention as you've probably noticed. Cheers
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Post by chinook9 on Jan 4, 2015 15:23:51 GMT
Excellent Javier! Good day!!
Things are looking good! The single exception, of course, is the need for an isolator board that requires surface mount of components I can barely see. I have soldered surface mount opamps but I expect these tiny capacitors etc. might be a bit much.
To simplify the process, I will check out the other USB to I2S boards you listed and identify one that is isolated and will be easier for me to use. Its also a plus if the board is available in the US so I don't have to wait so long for delivery.
If you see any good photos of completed BIIISE DACs please let me know. I learn a lot from pictures and often the pictures confirm my understanding of something I have read.
Have a good day!
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