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Post by jhelms on Mar 13, 2016 16:23:24 GMT
Since temps are ruled out, seems the gs40 series power supply is not happy with the large inrush of the older 6n6p. Will email you and get you setup with a gs60 version that should stop the flashing
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Post by luckbad on Mar 31, 2016 0:24:49 GMT
Forgot to update: The GS60 power supply solved the issue completely!
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Post by mvneufeld on Dec 2, 2017 22:58:15 GMT
It kind of makes me sad to see that Project Ember gets all the love with 142 pages, and Project Horizon has 2 measly pages...
Well, I just got a supercharged Horizon 3 with 6SN7 adapter, and it's great! I live in Tempe, so I was able to buy it directly from Jeremy. Everything people say about him is spot on - he's a great guy - super helpful and informative. I had a Bravo Ocean for a while, which got me into tube rolling. Then I started reading posts by Solderdude on how to mod the Bravo, which I did, and then I discovered that Garage1217's headphone amps were tube rolling heaven, so I gave away my Bravo and got the Horizon. I thought about getting an Ember, but I read that the Horizon had a bit more tubey warmth. Also, I've got some Massdrop Sennheiser HD6XXs coming for Christmas and I heard the Horizon is a good match.
So, tubes. I've only been at it for a couple of months, but here are my favorites: 1. New issue Tung Sol 6SN7GTB - perfect in every way 2. Late 40s Westinghouse 12SN7GT - nearly perfect, but a tiny bit noisy) 3. New issue Genalex Gold Lion 12AU7 - excellent for a 12AU7 4. 50s RCA Sentinel 6SN7GTA - really nice (for $5!) 5. 1960 Mullard 12AU7 (typical Mullard - highs are rolled off, but nice for late night listening) 6. New issue Electro Harmonix 6HP30Pi (a bit too bright and fatiguing with my current headphones - might be better with HD650s) 7. 50s Tung Sol 6SN7GT “mouse ears” (fantastic sound stage, bass could be stronger - might be better with HD650s)
I've got 10 or so other tubes that are good, but don't quite have the character or quality to be favorites.
General observances: 6SN7 and 12SN7 tubes are generally more dynamic and have better sound stage than 12AU7s (but the vintage 6SN7s tend to be noisier).
I’m very impressed with my $5 12SN7GT tube, and I have a $10 1948 12SX7GT tube on the way that has gotten some very good reviews. These 12SN7 type tubes seem like a really good deal.
I have two opinions that some people definitely do not share: 1) I found the new issue Russian tubes listed above are as good as the best vintage tubes. (But I'm still into collecting vintage tubes.) 2) I've been told that unless I get a Schiit Modi Multibit I can never be happy. Well, I'm very happy with my S.M.S.L. Sanskrit 6th Anniversary Edition DAC.
Any comments or tube recommendations are welcome. Thanks!
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howie
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Post by howie on Dec 3, 2017 0:46:19 GMT
For me Horizon, with the right tube, is superb. I particularly like E80CC tubes and dual 6J5's, but biasing requires a bit of patience-once you have the correct bias both tube types can sound glorious. Good luck in your tube rolling. Oh, I like those 'Mouse Ears' as well, they are still good value, though more expensive than a couple of years ago.
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Post by mvneufeld on Dec 3, 2017 2:07:28 GMT
Thanks! I'll have to check out E80CC tubes (though the ones I just looked at on eBay were pretty pricey). From what I've read, it appears they sound like this Electro Harmonix 6HP30Pi tube I have - "fast and detailed but it might be a little too clinical sounding for some headphones." But I'm using a pair of Sony MDR-V6s until I get the Sennheiser HD650s in a few weeks and I'm sure that will change things considerably.
Regarding the "Mouse Ears" 6SN7, Jeremy sold that one to me when I bought my amp, and when I got home and rolled it in I was astounded at the sound stage and overall dynamics of the tube - all I'd ever heard up to that point was 12AU7s in my Bravo. That's another tube I'm really looking forward to hearing with my HD650s.
One tube I got that was a disappointment was a Raytheon 6CG7. I'd read good things about them, but this one was just okay - on par with some 6SN7GTBs I have - but nothing special at all. Maybe there are better 6CG7s out there. And I wonder if anyone reading this has any opinion of 12SX7GT tubes?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 3, 2017 8:49:19 GMT
The SMSL Sanskrit 6 has a WM8740 DAC chip . There is also the pro version which has the 4490 chip. These 2 chips are not far apart in performance, the 4490 can go a little higher in sampling frequency. I see no profits (only downsides) in going above 24/192.
The Shitt modi (non multibit) also has the 4490 chip. The modi multibit has different chip. Measurement wise the 4490 chip is the better one. That is except for 'noise levels In order to make these noise levels audible you would have to listen at 150dB SPL peaks though.
But it is not as much about the used DAC chip but more the implementation. What filter is used both digital as well as analog. What is the accuracy of the analog filter compomenents. This may result in a wide range of measurable differences. Some bordering on audible ones, some inaudible and some quite audible.
The Modi MB is measurably rolled off in the upper treble. Depending on your age and used music this may well be audible on 'direct comparison'.
When someone held a gun to my head and told me to choose between the MB and 4490 I would choose the 4490 variant. This decision would be based on measurements. The measurement differences are well below the 'audible barrier' for most people.
I think I would be perfectly happy with the SMSL.
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Post by techboy on Dec 3, 2017 11:10:54 GMT
Does the Ember support 12sn7?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 3, 2017 12:52:44 GMT
Nope only 6SN7 which is exactly the same as 12SN7 except for the heater voltage. Only the Solstice can use 12SN7
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Post by techboy on Dec 3, 2017 13:49:11 GMT
Why didn’t you point that out to the user above that running 12SN7GT is unsafe?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 3, 2017 17:30:23 GMT
Nothing unsafe about it. The heater just seems to work on 50% undervoltage. It may just provide enough heat to loosen some electrons. Not designed for it though.
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Post by mvneufeld on Dec 3, 2017 19:03:28 GMT
Solderdude, I'm curious about what you said about using a 12SN7 tube in my Horizon. I figured that since I had an 6SN7 adapter, if I just set the jumper to 12 volts I could use a 12SN7GT. And it does work - I'm listening to a Westinghouse 12SN7GT as I type this (in fact it's one of my favorite tubes). The only thing I've noticed is that I have to turn the bias way down for this tube. I'm glad to read that there's nothing unsafe about it.
Thanks for the comment on the SMSL Sanskrit, too. I realize there are better DACs, but I think it's a very good one for $100. I figure I'd need to pay at least $150 more to get another 5%-10% improvement, and I'm 64, so odds are I wouldn't be able to hear it anyway. I agree that the 32bit/192kHz sampling rate is overkill (ridiculous, in fact). I didn't buy it for the high sampling rate - I thought the components were of good quality, 2 volt output was good for a DAC at this price, and I'd seen some pretty convincing reviews. (The bad reviews were invariably by people who hadn't actually heard the thing - like a lot of the bad reviews for new issue tubes.) I think this DAC is very transparent, and the highs are very good to these old ears. If there is something that might be better, it's the sound stage, but I am I right in thinking that the tube I choose and the headphones I listen with are going to more of a factor?
On the subject of setting the bias(es) - I make it a habit of turning the two bias screws way down before I roll in a different tube (and then of course I turn them back up). Do you think this is a good idea or not really necessary?
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Dec 3, 2017 23:55:00 GMT
The 12V setting doesn't really create a 12V heater voltage. There is only a 6V heater voltage available in the amp.
What the jumper does (for 12V noval tubes) is use different pins for feeding the heater.
In 6V tubes the heater is connected between pin 4 and 5 and is 6V With 12V tubes the heaters (2 x a 6V heater in series) with a centertap on pin 9 is connected differently so both 6V segments are fed with 6V.
The 6SN7 has one heater which is 6V The 12SN7 also has one heater (no centertap arrangement) which is 12V.
So the tube will light up but not as bright as it should. Obviously still hot enough that the cathode emits some electrons. Just enough to drive the circuit in this case.
Nothing is going to break. Power tubes should never be used with an undervoltage but in this case that is no problem.
No need to pre-dial the bias to any point. Nothing gets damaged when the bias is set way too high or too low.
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Post by mvneufeld on Dec 4, 2017 2:36:15 GMT
Thanks for the great explanation - I even understood it! I guess I'm just lucky that this tube sounds so good at half voltage. I've got a 12SX7 tube coming from Taiwan, and we'll see if it even works, but after this I'll stick with tubes that are listed in the Horizon manual. (It's also good to know I'm not risking burning down the house by trying these tubes.)
The thing is I got the 6SN7 adapter (which isn't covered in the tube list in the manual) and wasn't sure what tubes I could with it.
Thanks also for letting me know that I don't need to bother with pre-dialing the bias.
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Post by lobalwarming on Dec 4, 2017 10:06:24 GMT
Sorry, I'm late to the 12SN7/12SX7/6SN7 party. Definitely my fav tube party. I have a few 12SX7s and many 12SN7s - and a G1217 Solstice which can supply a true 12V heater output with a jumper change. Which is how normally I use it. However, in the interests of sonic science and plain curiosity, I just ran a couple 12SX7s and 12SN7s with the jumpers in the normal 6V position as if it was a 6SN7. And all the tubes worked. One sounded pretty good - a GE 12SN7, however, all were noisier at 6V compared to 12V and didn't sound as good at 6V as at their native 12V heater voltage. From this single data point, we can conclude that while the 12V versions of 6SN7s will work at 6V, they won't work as well. Although usually pricier than the 12V brethren, there are many great 6SN7 tubes. For headphone listening I find the open spacious presentation of a good 6SN7 preferable to the smaller, more constricted presentation of the children's miniature tubes. For most of my listening I prefer 6SN7/12SN7s to the little noval tubes, even the E80CC - one of my fav 9pinners. In my chain, Presonus FSM SPDIF > Mimby > Solstice > 650s, the Tungsram E80CC is very good - on a par with the best 6CG7/6FQ7s. (6CG7 is the same 6SN7 plate design squished into a smaller tube - for cost-cutting reasons, not better audio behavior from what I hear and have read.) Out of the 6CG7/6FQ7 I've tried so far, a NOS 1950s Westinghouse and a 60s GE JAN are good 6SN7 step-children. The former preserves most of the addictive spaciousness of a good 6SN7 with excellent details and the GE has great clarity, but more forward presentation with a little less spaciousness. Haven't yet found a 6CG7/6FQ7 that bests a good 6SN7/12SN7 overall - except for marginally lower noise and letting the LED glow shine through. So far much prefer the 6CG7/6FQ7 to 12BH7A - which are too up front and harsh for my delicate sensibilities. LOL! I have one NOS RCA 12SX7 that is exceptional - the clarity and detail of a top-tier 6DJ8 with the relaxed, open 6SN7 presentation. However, the differences between a $6 NOS Canadian GE 12SN7 and a $35 GE 12SX7 weren't worth the cost - especially since my best example of the $6 12SN7 is quieter and little more detailed than the GE 12SX7. One thing I've learned with these 60+ year old tubes - some have aged better on the shelf than others - not to mention the differences between factories and production runs. Many used 6SN7s can suffer from microphonics - doesn't bother me too much for headphone use tho. And with the larger RF gathering plates can be more sensitive to modern RF devices in the vicinity. A simple RF modesty screen can keep those bad waves out tho. ;-) In my experience, the 12SX7 designation doesn't guarantee elevated performance - each tube needs to be heard in-circuit and some have greater synergy than others. And that is part of the fun of tube rolling. Discovery and happy surprises. Or slightly less happy ones. The other fun part is selecting a tube to suit the listening session mood. And the 6SN7 family has so many unique flavours - to me a larger variety of differences than the 12AU7 or 6DJ8 types and usually at lower costs since the better 9pins are priced to match audiophile-infatuation-inflation. The 9pin genre seems to me to be about finding the ultimate 'sound' usually at an ultimate price. Not so much about enjoying the tube rolling journey as reaching the audio-nirvana destination. For me, savoring the journey is the more satisfying destination. Want darker, smoother, wider? Grey glass RCA from the 1940s or NU Black glass. More bass and depth? Sylvania 6SN7GT from the 40s or a '52-'53 Bad Boy. Feeling airy? Tung-sol Mouse Ears or Canadian GE short base/tall glass. Lush transparency? Sylvania VT-231. Rich and vibrant with a juicy 3D midrange? Tung-Sol round plate from the late 40s or Brimar round plate. And on and on in other enjoyably audible ways. Careful with the round plate habit tho - it can be pricey. Although with some searching and patience, a pair of Sylvania round plate 6P5s for $30-$40 and an adapter can come close to a good $200+ TS RP 6SN7 - with a wider soundstage perhaps compensating for losing a little juiciness. The great value of the G1217 amps is not just their great design, build quality and value. Instead of just passive listening with my previous solid state amps - swapping tubes has altered the process of listening to a more active enjoyment of the music and sonic characteristics. Without the obsessive audiophiliac neurosis side effects. I'm a better, active listener now. Hoping if I swap enough tubes, I'll become a better person - just like Jeremy said I would. G1217 hybrid amps are so much more fun than a SS amp, even far more costly ones, that can only aspire to one sound - boring. And that concludes my 6SN7/12SN7 party rant! Thanks for letting me wax on and on....
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Post by mvneufeld on Dec 4, 2017 18:33:42 GMT
Great post - thanks! I think I'll try flogging my Westinghouse 12SN7GT and the RCA 12SX7GT on eBay or this forum since they are not really compatible with my Horizon. I'm listening to my Raytheon 6GC7 right now, and I have to revise my opinion of it. It's just a bit bass-heavy, but the highs and mids are very full and detailed. This is one thing I'm really enjoying: as my newly acquired tubes burn in (and maybe my DAC, too) their characteristics are subtly changing.
I, too, generally prefer 6SN7s to 12AU7s. A couple of my 6SN7s and even one of my 12AU7 tubes have pretty noticeable microphonics, but as you say, it's not much of an issue in a headphone amp. I'm selling several of my tubes on eBay and Reverb, and I wonder if I need to mention the microphonics (the people I bought them from didn't).
I really want to get a grey glass RCA one of these days, and that Sylvania VT-231 sounds like something to check after Christmas. Need to take a little tube-buying break, though - my wife is getting alarmed at all the little packages that arrive every week.
One question - what is your opinion of 5692 tubes? Are they as good as some say, and are they compatible with the Horizon?
I totally agree about G1217 hybrid amps - and you put it very well. They're incredibly versatile and fun to use. It's nice to be able to use a wide range of headphones and tubes by just changing jumper settings, and tube rolling is a kick.
I'm glad there's a forum where I can talk with like-minded folks, because my wife and friends think I've lost my mind. Thanks again to you and Solderdude.
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