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Post by lobalwarming on Jun 4, 2017 23:39:58 GMT
put my ears on the Horizon?
Hi, everyone, I'm new here. I was sent by (in)direct orders from Jeremy - not that he told me what I should do - he wouldn't. So, that's the other reason I'm here. So you can. ;-)
I've decided to dive into the tube tank and swim with the vintage electrons. Just need to decide on the G1217 diving board. I've read almost all the threads here and most of Frans' posts on diyaudioheaven - love his approach and the great value for money that G1217 amps offer. As rich as the words have been on the internet, the actual tone of the amps really needs to be heard in person - except I'd prefer to only order once. Or twice. Ok, three times, but no more!
Here's my usage - When I'm not obsessing over the tone of obscure recordings, I'm a web media developer who spends a fair amount of time editing video, sound design and dialogue matching. I'm a musician and recovering audiophile, so have reasonably critical (and jaded) ears. I've spent years in the semi-pro world, which is 99% solid state in the current century. Except for tube mics and preamps.
There must be a G1217 for me. The Polaris is an obvious choice and I just missed getting a used one for a good price, so am a little sore about it. Besides, until Solderdude designs a jfet-swapping amp, I want a chance to roll with the tubes of musical legend.
Main work/music phones are:
Primary: HD650. Secondary: 240DF and 598. Fun phones are X1, modded T20.
My first pick, not just because I'm cheap, is the Starlight, because if the tube rolling doesn't work out, I can still waste hours and money on opamps! But, what if I really like both? Might turn the cute little Starlight into a FrankenStar with a pair of 6J5s towering over four Sparkos hanging precariously on badly soldered adapters. (Or THS4032. Will they work less precariously?)
The Solstice seems like a great option too. Don't mind biasing, but don't mind at all if I don't have to. With the 551 outputs seems like it would drive all my phones fine. Also can get into the cheap 12sn7 world, while they're still sort of cheap. 1A of current, so no worries about hungry 6n6ps either. But, you knew that.
But then I think...for the same price, I can get a full class A discrete output stage...and I like Class A. So...if I did go that way...there's still TWO more choices!!!
The Sunrise which many on the net claim drives the 650s just fine and it's cheaper. But, then what if my trusty 20+ year old AKGs could sing again on the Horizon. Also it has the 44V plate rather than the 22V of the other amps. Does the higher plate voltage have any audible benefit other than the smug ear-peen? And then if I go Horizon, why not supercharge it for only a little extra charge. Decisions. Decisions.
Please don't put my ears against the Embers....Choosing between 4 amps is enough - it's out of budget - have to save several hundred to waste on tubes. Although I could just spend $300+ on a 1962 Tele and put it on the shelf and gaze at it longingly, imagining how sweet the sound and space would be, if I only had an tube amp of my own. ;-)
I'm diddling around the edge of the pool. Do I dip a low cost toe in the Starlight, or just plunge headamp first into 20 warm watts of deep rich Sun-risened tone?
Thanks in advance to those who are willing to make my mind up for me. Or at least tip the balance to a particular G1217 model's feature I may have overlooked. Hope I can contribute later in the tube rolling thread with wallet-worn must-have (or must-not) options. And thanks to Frans and Jeremy for making this low-cost tubular journey have too many great options. ;-)
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Post by ronzo56 on Jun 5, 2017 1:00:00 GMT
Welcome loabalwarming. This is place if you are looking for advice on a G1217 amps. And also advice on tubes. Hope you enjoy our little forum.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jun 5, 2017 5:12:03 GMT
 A lovely, humour laden post!! Hi lobalwarming  . I enjoyed reading your post so much, I forgot epwhat you were asking. Welcome to DIYAH. Solderdude will give you the best description and 'application' of each. I enjoy both the Ember and Polarus along with an MF v8 which Has a couple of tubes inside. There is another ss one I use a lot called the Kameleon as well and it is what it says. It is actually matched to each headphone I use via a 'tuning' chip so the frequency response of them is flattened out. The HD 650 is unbelievable from it.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 5, 2017 7:56:18 GMT
Welcome to the forum. Great sense of humor on the nickname ! Main work/music phones are: Primary: HD650. Secondary: 240DF and 598. Fun phones are X1, modded T20. There is quite a spread in technical specs there. Ranging from 30 Ohm (X1) to 600 Ohm (K240DF). Also quite some spread in current (T20) and voltage (K240DF) demands. And some spread in tonal balance as well. Let's see how much voltage you will need to power the K240DF. Suppose you want to listen quite loud at average levels of say 90dB. In that case when using well made recordings with a DR of say 15 you will need 105dB SPL. This means 5V and 8mA Can't hurt to have some headroom left. Certainly not when using tubes as distortion increases when the output voltage increases. And what if you find it a little bit lean and turn up the bass a little ? So 10V and 16mA will always keep you in the safe zone here. To create 10Veff you will need 30Vpp. 10V in 600 Ohm = 170mW For this HP only the 48V amps (Horizon, Ember, Polaris) would be optimally suited. Assuming you don't have the need for high SPL and feel 105dB peak is enough and don't mind to get some tube nitty gritty distortion there 5V would be just about enough for most situations. 15Vpp can be made with 24V. (40mW in 600 Ohm) In that case all G1217 amps will be possible. The lower impedance (X1 with 30 Ohm) will just require 1V and draw 25mA at 105dB but the same here in case you want more headroom 2V and 50mA would be required. Voltage wise all amps will work. Current wise 50mAeff = 70mApeak This is 100mW so the Starlight should already be able to deliver the goods with room to spare. (providing you use 2 output opamps per channel) Another difficult one is the T20. 50 Ohm impedance is not that low but the efficiency is lower. It needs a bit more voltage than the X1 so with some extra headroom you are looking at 3V and 60mA = around 0.2W at 50 Ohm. Also not a problem for Starlight here. The HD650 will sing all songs when about 4V is avialbale (draws 12mA in that case = 50mW in 300 Ohm) Here too the Starlight will already 'work'. The Sunrise which many on the net claim drives the 650s just fine and it's cheaper. But, then what if my trusty 20+ year old AKGs could sing again on the Horizon. Also it has the 44V plate rather than the 22V of the other amps. Does the higher plate voltage have any audible benefit other than the smug ear-peen? And then if I go Horizon, why not supercharge it for only a little extra charge. Yes, the higher plate voltage does make a difference. Not so much at smaller output levels but when the music plays louder the higher plate voltage amps will remain cleaner sounding as there simply is less distortion. This could be an issue with the K240DF when you want to make it sing and boost the lower bass tones for some more grunt. Less so with the HD650 but when you want it to keep sounding smooth and clean in higher levels there is some merit in higher voltage amps. So for HD650 and K240DF a Horizon could be the best decision (when taking budget into account) Sunrise is already 'enough' for the HD650 and will drive the K240DF reasonably well but possibly not make it thump and sing. You simply need more voltage for this rare one. It can provide just enough current to drive all headphones you have and can drive the HD650 and K240 with ease. It is class-A and manual bias/heater select. When the HD650 and K240DF are the main 'workhorses' this might be your choice. It will have enough power to drive the other headphones and just enough for the T20. Only the original Horizon needs a Supercharger fitted to be able to use high heater current tubes. The current Horizon doesn't need it. It can already drive those tubes. The other headphones (including the HD650) should play well on the Sunrise, Solstice and Starlight. The Starlight and Sunrise take some time and effort when roling tubes cause ... manual bias. The Solstice does this automatically but you still need to set the tube voltage properly. When the K240DF must sing the Horizon would be needed. When it is of lesser importance the Sunrise and Starlight are good options as well as the Solstice when rolling tubes more often. The starlight should be fitted with 2 opamps per channel in this case just to have enough current available. |
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Post by lobalwarming on Jun 5, 2017 21:57:58 GMT
Thanks for the warm welcome and almost decisive advise.
The 240DF and T20 are fringe cases, like their owner. I've used the 240DFs for mixing/monitoring for over 20 years out of a variety of mixing boards and external SS boxes - not because they sounded great, but because I knew them so well that my brain could make them sound neutral - with only a little perceptual tweaking.
The T20s were my gateway drug into headphone modding. Still haven't tweaked them to deliver the clean, linear FR of a 650, but it's fun to try.
I rarely feel the need for high SPL. 96 dB is the max output limit of my old Gibson A mando at full chop at .5M - that's not banjo loud, but loud enough for me. My normal HP listening levels peak around 70db with 85-90dB peaks, if that. I'm more of a first milliwatt kinda guy. I use phones as a way to listen 'into' the music/audio, not so much for visceral impact. I have cats for that.
Solderdude, thanks for the detailed overview. Seems like all 4 will drive the 650s just fine. That narrows the field. ;-)
The Horizon now ships with the supercharger option? That's a cost saving for me - but a profit loss for Jeremy. Class A plus way too much headroom for a little bit more than Sunrise and Solstice could tip the balance.
Jeremy mentioned that the Class A mosfets outputs provide a 'smooth laidback' 'jazzy' sound but the 551s are more dynamic. A smooth laidback presentation on phones sounds attractive. But, does that tradeoff detail and subtlety? In my experience with Class A SS speaker amps it meant the some of harsher transistor high frequency artifacts were reduced. Dynamics weren't limited, at least not until the outputs blew. How large/subtle is the difference between the mosfet vs opamp output models?
How much extra bother is the manual bias process? The G1217 video makes it seem like fun! Do these small signal tubes drift that much over time? As a musician, I've learned the importance of laziness, so smoothness be damned, the Solstice could be a better match for my lack of discipline. ;-)
I have no idea how much rolling of tubes I will do. I'm curious to experience the 'magic' of these old legendary electron streams in a vacuum. If it's just lots of added 2nd order harmonics, I will be disappointed. I want MAGIC, damn it! Magic. And a bigger, wider, deeper more magically transformative vocabulary so I can score a dream job writing for headphonia. LOL!
Will play another round of 20 annoying questions with Jeremy and then maybe let the cats decide - they'll likely select the model with the most heat output to snooze on.
Thanks again, everyone. Hope to be rolling with you all soon.
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Post by marveltone on Jun 5, 2017 22:43:27 GMT
Welcome to the forum! I can't speak for the other amps, but I have the Starlight (Love it!), and biasing is actually very easy. If you like to tinker, you'll have no problems with that extra step when rolling tubes.
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Post by lobalwarming on Jun 6, 2017 3:58:11 GMT
The Sunrise which many on the net claim drives the 650s just fine and it's cheaper. But, then what if my trusty 20+ year old AKGs could sing again on the Horizon. Also it has the 44V plate rather than the 22V of the other amps. Does the higher plate voltage have any audible benefit other than the smug ear-peen? And then if I go Horizon, why not supercharge it for only a little extra charge. Yes, the higher plate voltage does make a difference. Not so much at smaller output levels but when the music plays louder the higher plate voltage amps will remain cleaner sounding as there simply is less distortion. This could be an issue with the K240DF when you want to make it sing and boost the lower bass tones for some more grunt. Less so with the HD650 but when you want it to keep sounding smooth and clean in higher levels there is some merit in higher voltage amps. So for HD650 and K240DF a Horizon could be the best decision (when taking budget into account) Sunrise is already 'enough' for the HD650 and will drive the K240DF reasonably well but possibly not make it thump and sing. You simply need more voltage for this rare one. It can provide just enough current to drive all headphones you have and can drive the HD650 and K240 with ease. It is class-A and manual bias/heater select. When the HD650 and K240DF are the main 'workhorses' this might be your choice. It will have enough power to drive the other headphones and just enough for the T20. Only the original Horizon needs a Supercharger fitted to be able to use high heater current tubes. The current Horizon doesn't need it. It can already drive those tubes. The other headphones (including the HD650) should play well on the Sunrise, Solstice and Starlight. The Starlight and Sunrise take some time and effort when roling tubes cause ... manual bias. The Solstice does this automatically but you still need to set the tube voltage properly. When the K240DF must sing the Horizon would be needed. When it is of lesser importance the Sunrise and Starlight are good options as well as the Solstice when rolling tubes more often. The starlight should be fitted with 2 opamps per channel in this case just to have enough current available. Asked the Jeremy about the new Frans' generous free supercharger upgrade for the Horizon. He said it's not free in the current Horizon. And the supercharger seems to be de rigueur for more rolling options. That brings Sunrise and Solstice back to the bargaining table. How loud a level would the 650 be playing before the lower plate voltage becomes less clean? >100dB? >106dB? My ears aren't low distortion above 102dB. My threshold of pain is lower than the average 110dB. I plan on getting a Polaris eventually and could use it to make the 240DFs sing. Or cry. ;-) If my incredible powers of shopping redeductionism have reduced the choice to the Sunrise or Solstice, then only need to determine whether the Class A mosfet in the Sunrise sounds better/different than the 551 in Solstice using the ears of the internet to hear with my eyes. How hard can that be? ;-) Also a little confused about the THD spec between the two (Not that a single number of merit captures the character). The reportedly smoother sounding Sunrise with its no-feedback Class A output stage has less distortion, THD: > 0.013% (dependent on tube) vs the Solstice with a quoted THD: > 0.10% (dependent on tube). Is that a typo in the specs? Pragmatically, how big an effect on the sound does the output stage have? Isn't it just a current follower, the 'proper' voltage work being done in a sealed glass tube? Oh..wait...enough difference to offer two models at the same price. Not getting out of this buyer's dilemma with basic rationalization skills. ;-) Thanks! |
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Post by lobalwarming on Jun 6, 2017 4:39:17 GMT
Welcome to the forum! I can't speak for the other amps, but I have the Starlight (Love it!), and biasing is actually very easy. If you like to tinker, you'll have no problems with that extra step when rolling tubes. Thanks, Mr MarvelTone. I've read some of your books. ;-) I like to tinker, but usually when there's no need to. How often after the initial roll-in period do you need to re-bias? |
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Post by solderdude on Jun 6, 2017 4:51:41 GMT
Ah yes,
I remember talking about changing the Sunrise and Horizon a while back and combining it and integrate the SC.
Was convinced it was already in there but indeed it is not.
Are you located in the E.U. ?
The THD measurements are done by Jeremy.
As mentioned the THD is a: very tube dependent and amplitude dependent as well as load dependent for the Class-A where lower impeadance means slightly higher distortion figures.
I have no idea at which output level and with which load he determined the distortion levels and if he uses a single (always the same) tube for this.
Most likely the measurements differ too much.
Both type of output stages are simple 'voltage followers' and do not add any extra 'solid state' distortion, at least well below than those from the tubes so higher numbers must be caused by level or tube type differences.
You can connect your DF directly to the output of any speakeramp (can be between 50 and 100W) and see if it can make it sing.
If it doesn't for you then no headphone amp will.
That will narrow you down to 24V supply amps.
The HD650 will sound clean right up to 100dB for sure.
The Polaris will offer no tube swapping. It is lower in noise (by lack of tubes) but this background noise is only audible when using very high efficiency headphones (IEM's and some portable headphones) and can be mitigated by using an attenuator in the output socket.
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Post by lobalwarming on Jun 6, 2017 6:04:50 GMT
Thanks, Frans!
I'm on the wet coast of Canada, which is close to the E.U. At least emotionally. ;-)
Want to make the 650 sing. Not so worried about the DF - stage whisper is fine.
My plan is to get the Polaris later for another workstation where the 240DF or 598 could be used. But, could change to a Starlight if I get hooked on rolling. Would need to be low radiated heat tho - already have hot overclocked workstations heating up my space. ;-)
Between the Sunrise's Class A output vs the Solstices 551s is one a better match for the 650? Or is it just a feature difference - auto vs manual bias? Or should I just let the cats pick the 20W one they can cozy up on. With the optional G1217 cat-over-tube lounger.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jun 6, 2017 18:04:26 GMT
To me it is more of a feature difference and maximum available output current question.
Some people feel the Sunrise sounds better.
The Solstice (and Styarlight) stays cool (except the tube) where the Sunrise get's quite hot.
cats do like the heat don't they.. one of ours loves to sunbathe behind a window.
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Post by marveltone on Jun 6, 2017 22:54:27 GMT
Welcome to the forum! I can't speak for the other amps, but I have the Starlight (Love it!), and biasing is actually very easy. If you like to tinker, you'll have no problems with that extra step when rolling tubes. Thanks, Mr MarvelTone. I've read some of your books. ;-) I like to tinker, but usually when there's no need to. How often after the initial roll-in period do you need to re-bias? Once dialed in, I've never had to re-bias... yet.  Providing the tubes are stable, the amp is rock-solid, both spec-wise and build-wise.  Judging by the power curve, the Starlight almost seems to be tailored towards AKG, Fostex, and Grado cans. Frans could tell you how it would fare with the higher impedance HD650. He's the expert! |
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Post by lobalwarming on Jun 6, 2017 23:54:42 GMT
To me it is more of a feature difference and maximum available output current question. Some people feel the Sunrise sounds better. The Solstice (and Styarlight) stays cool (except the tube) where the Sunrise get's quite hot. cats do like the heat don't they.. one of ours loves to sunbathe behind a window. Oh...to be you...not worried by what 'some' feel. LOL! Just read the "DANGER! Extreme Temperatures!" section in the Sunrise manual. 70c is pretty hot, even for cool cats. Looking like the Solstice will be my summer amp. Just have to avoid 'some' people on the internet until winter when a hot new Horizon could arrive on my snowy porch. Thanks again for your patient responses to my near endless questions. |
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Post by lobalwarming on Jun 7, 2017 0:30:26 GMT
Thanks, Mr MarvelTone. I've read some of your books. ;-) I like to tinker, but usually when there's no need to. How often after the initial roll-in period do you need to re-bias? Once dialed in, I've never had to re-bias... yet. Providing the tubes are stable, the amp is rock-solid, both spec-wise and build-wise. Judging by the power curve, the Starlight almost seems to be tailored towards AKG, Fostex, and Grado cans. Frans could tell you how it would fare with the higher impedance HD650. He's the expert! That's encouraging. Have you played in the OPAMP swap swamp yet? I'd be terribly tempted to spend way too much money on some discrete opamps for unknown benefits. I'm familiar with the $$$ discrete opamps used in many $$$ mic preamps - some sound very, very good. In mic preamps. The temptation to opamp roll could negatively affect my tube buying spree. ;-) |
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Post by marveltone on Jun 7, 2017 1:35:11 GMT
Once dialed in, I've never had to re-bias... yet. Providing the tubes are stable, the amp is rock-solid, both spec-wise and build-wise. Judging by the power curve, the Starlight almost seems to be tailored towards AKG, Fostex, and Grado cans. Frans could tell you how it would fare with the higher impedance HD650. He's the expert! That's encouraging. Have you played in the OPAMP swap swamp yet? I'd be terribly tempted to spend way too much money on some discrete opamps for unknown benefits. I'm familiar with the $$$ discrete opamps used in many $$$ mic preamps - some sound very, very good. In mic preamps. The temptation to opamp roll could negatively affect my tube buying spree. ;-) I have not rolled opamps yet. Jeremy kitted such a good sounding chip, I've not felt the need to change. My impression is, tubes will likely make the bigger difference, but I could very well be mistaken. I've swapped a few tubes because I own tube guitar amps, so already had some laying around. Besides, I'm notoriously cheap! |
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. I enjoyed reading your post so much, I forgot epwhat you were asking.
Providing the tubes are stable, the amp is rock-solid, both spec-wise and build-wise. 