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Post by MaN227 on Jan 10, 2014 8:39:02 GMT
Chaz, you should write more!! Great post full of common sense, and great down-to-earth advice for a newbie This forum's really beginning to gel. thx EKbluesboy for your kind words. although I'm not so sure about posting more of my thoughts and observations, as stated prior I'm reluctant to steer someone the wrong direction, and don't really feel qualified. but I suppose if I look at it for what it really is " a headphone enthusiast simply sharing his simple thoughts in a simple way" its not so bad. not look at it so much as advising this or that cause I KNOW. Not sure if that makes sense, but thank you again for your kind words EK. LOVE your rock out kitty avatar btw hehe, always makes me smile every time I see a post of yours. And I agree this forum is starting to gel, three good fellows in charge is the start, and a solid foundation is needed for anything to grow. I have been a member of many different "interest" forums over the years, and I find some of best experience's have been on small'ish forums, where a friendliness and helpfulness really thrives, friendships can develop and this place DIYAH has that thx to the 3 amigo's that decided to form it. you get more butterflies a fluttering in your garden with flowers and honey than you do spewing fire and whiskey all about the garden. jus sayin'
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mashv
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Post by mashv on Jan 10, 2014 20:38:46 GMT
Ok, i'm here, first of all i would like to say a big thank you to MaN227, i feel a lot of empathy in your words. I admit to like ae51st a lot you're right, but there are pros and cons between them and UE6000 that makes me struggle, first of all Accidentally Extraordinary is a fairly new company, and not even an excellent one, it seems like they bought a stock of headphones from esmoth(the company you linked the previous pages) and gave them to Amazon for selling. There's no customer care, no communication, no marketing involvement, their facebook account is pretty much frozen, stuck to 20 December, the date around the release of the product. I contacted them on Facebook, i contacted them by their site form but i received no response. There's no information about where they're located, only a vague Oakland, California, no phone contact, no email, no information on what kind of company are they etc.
They also stated ae51st was the resulting of engineer, design and sound research from their own, and instead they seems to have engaged that esmoth chinese company to rebrand their headphones and sell them under accidentally extraordinary name, there's nothing wrong about it, i know a lot of products are made in china, but at least don't fool your potential customers stating what is not true.
This wouldn't be a problem if the company felt like a young but strong and growing one, i would love to be part of a little "elite" who contributes on the birth of a new competitor on the market. But having no response, no signal(also a little one) of them caring about their product, makes me struggle a lot on my decision. I don't know if this company has a future or is even already dead, who should i contact in case of problems, if they have customer service, if they'll replace broken headphones, if i have to refer to Amazon instead and a lot of other unclear things.
All this makes me think it's a group of people picking a random pair of headphones from a random chinese company and resell them with higher price to earn some money, finishing the stock and disappear from the scene. It would be stupid, because if you see "your" headphones having some appreciation you would like to continue and build a real brand from nothing, but i believe it's hard, they claim to have experts, designers and all, but actually i think it could also be all false and they don't have any ability on making headphones, apart from investing some money on buying them from chinese companies and resell them.
So, analyzing the situation i can make a list of pros and cons about these two headphones:
ae51st
Pros: - Visually i love them, they seems very solid and well built - Sound quality comparable to the UE6000 - The sound seems to be warm and soft with good bass definition(as i can understand but i might be wrong) - Moddability, their earpads are easily replaceable, and can mod them in the future if i'll be able and mount better drivers etc(i don't know if it's possible)
Cons: - No customer care, no faith in this company, not sure what i will do if they break - Poor isolation compared to almost perfect UE6000(passive mode) - Cheap earpad - Poor bass extention
UE6000
Pros: - Great construction quality... - Great isolation - Memory foam earpads - Good bass range - Really solid
Cons: -....but still plastic - A little meh looking, but on pair with all the others headphones, my opinion is influenced by the unique ae51st design - Bass has less definition - No replaceable earpads, this is a great, great no for me, i always fixed my things by my own when possible, pc, smartphone batteries(i will never buy a non removable battery one) etc. I don't know how much earpads are subject to sweat and other factors that makes them tear apart, but i feel less "free" and more constricted compared to ae51st.
That's all, i'm beginning to understand how to read graphics where headphones sound are analized, and begin to understand the "kind" of sound and difference these headphones have. I feel like UE6000 are the rational choice and really good on sound quality, while ae51st would be an heart choice, with less good sound, maybe more personal, but with some imperfection compared to.
I appreciate a lot your in the face opinion MaN227, don't think i'll be directed to a wrong choice, when i decide it's because i know i will have no regret, and even if something goes wrong, your opinion, and the other users in this topic opinions are opinions and nothing more, no one of you is forcing me, i'm here to ask for your help, i would be dumb if i'd accuse you.
Thank you, and sorry if it seems like your opinions don't clear my mind and i return here like i don't listen you and repeat every time my indecisions, it's not like this, i have the situation clearer and clearer in my mind, and with you all i'm going in the right direction.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 10, 2014 21:14:13 GMT
Just one thing, the isolation is better on the AE51 than the CAL.
The company going bust doesn't particularly worry me tbh. You don't normally need support from them with regards to headphones other than pads, and even then, equivalents can be had.
I like the AE51 actually. It doesn't sound as rolled away as it looks to me.
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mashv
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Post by mashv on Jan 10, 2014 21:54:53 GMT
Just one thing, the isolation is better on the AE51 than the CAL. The company going bust doesn't particularly worry me tbh. You don't normally need support from them with regards to headphones other than pads, and even then, equivalents can be had. I like the AE51 actually. It doesn't sound as rolled away as it looks to me. Can you tell me if the part with AE marked in it is made of plastic, steel, or steel+plastic? Earpad are comfortable over ear? Or a little more on ear? From images they seems small. Other than that, do you see the possibility to mod them? Is the cable that passes through the headbend removable if someone wants to replace it? Also, i don't know anything of moddability, in general you can put a better 40mm driver in the capsule and it sounds better? Or there are others factors that principally makes the sound?(capsule i suppose). Do you see ae51st durable in time?
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 10, 2014 22:08:54 GMT
The AW is a kind of hard plastic, I think. It screws together with 4 mini screws. The ratchet mechanism is really good.
The pads are quite small, but larger than the Momentum. The tops of my ears go in, so I regard them as 'semi-circumaural
They look as though they would be easy to mod if that's what you want to get in to. It might be useful (I guess) to put some padding in the wooden cups perhaps?
Headband is ultimately removable but not too easy. The attachments to the cups would mean getting them apart and undoing them from the inside.
I guess it would be possible to change the drivers, but why not just get another headphone?
It is a very durable headphone and is well built. That's one thing that I really like about it. Plus the fact that you can change leads very quickly from short to long or full sized jack plug at the other end.
Good isolation. No real deep bass but lots of impact. Treble rolled away but quite refined and unfatiguing for long listening. Close to Senn Momentum type sound. (Momentum is slightly less rolled away on the head)
Really good value for money, however, the CAL2 is a better headphone in terms of sound, but then it's more expensive too.
It sounds as though you want to buy one and then change the headband, pads and drivers..... that would make it another headphone. Why not buy another headphone? I can't see the point of modding it so that none of the original headphone is actually there.
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Post by MaN227 on Jan 10, 2014 22:14:52 GMT
its all good mashv. I wish you the best of luck, as I know first hand how hard it can be to come to a decision on making a purchase of headphone, not hearing them yourself, its actually rather scary. When funding for headphones is tight (know that as well personally) it makes it even harder. and the fact of the matter is we convince ourselves to agree with what we desire, with anything in life. if you want to drink and do drugs or base jump off a mountain we convince ourselves to focus on the good and dismiss the bad. as far as being new company, that does not bother me either. and as far as communication. I contacted them 3 times via email and got a reply in a seasonable amount of time, they were nice, kind, helpful, professional. I have no clue why you would not get a reply from them. this is the email addy I was in contact with info@aeheadphones.com. hope this helps. and just so you know I would be the same way as you, its hard to have faith in ANYone who does not reply to your emails, regardless of what they sell. perhaps you should start out even lower cost? like a koss portapro? that was if your not happy your decision has not cost you so much. or perhaps even "cast a bigger net" find more headphones that you know are within your budget and research them on forums. bear in mind more expensive does NOT always mean better. the audio technica ath m50 is likely the most recommended headphone on the planet within your price range, perhaps consider it. or yet still and I almost forgot about this headphone. the Goldring DR 150 , not sure if you can source them in Italy, but they r British made i believe, I seem to recall picking them up for around 30-40 dollars. ... but the flip side is the more you add to potential purchase list the more confused one can become. what I have found to be one of the biggest differences (while looking for opinion on forums) there is one "camp" that buy headphones for how they sound to them for the enjoyment of music and the other "camp" VERY often times find cans that are enjoyable no good cause a freq graph told them they are not good. In my searching I have tried to strike a balance between the two. it all depends on what you want. cans that are supposedly better cause a graph says they are near flat across the freq spectrum will be very unforgiving, meaning basically u put crap in you get crap out, they reveal ALL flaws be it in the recording itself of parts in your system, while cans with a not so flat graph (which is actually most cans) are more forgiving to poor recordings and poor parts in your sound setup. you must determine based on many variables, consider the music first and how you want to here it. low bit rate mp3s are NOT what you want. and hey maybe your best course of action is not get in a hurry, and save your money, do a LOT of reading on forums about many headphones, it just may be that a more expensive headphone could be your best bet. I love my senn hd 650 still my favorite headphone of all that I have, read many good things about the senn hd 600 as well, and its cheaper than the 650. I will warn you again, once u get started with headphones its hard to NOT want to have what is BETTER. Guilty as charged
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 10, 2014 22:22:20 GMT
Absolutely Chaz!! There is also the very cheap Panasonic bucket headphone which is very good. In UK £29 and excellent value: www.amazon.co.uk/Panasonic-Monitor-Over-Ear-Headphones-Smartphone/dp/B004UDTM1Q/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1389392381&sr=8-2&keywords=panasonic+headphoneFor modding, the excellent Superlux with Frans modding at around the same price. HD681 is superb with a filter and pad change. Or the Evo if you like big bass or once again, use Fran's mods. They would be even better value than the AE51 for a newbie since they are under £30 and really good!! Perhaps think about HOW you're going to use them. I have the AE51 for moving around in public so it's not too obtrusive but shuts out sound and gives a good representation of a full sized headphone.
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Post by MaN227 on Jan 10, 2014 22:30:37 GMT
I agree rabbit the hd681 , frans filter and velo pads is a great place to start, can't speak for the newer evo. and speaking of these mods is not something hard, rather very simple. plug 681 into filter, plug filter into source. pull off old earpads put on new ones, done. and depending on what you can source where you live the superlux hd681 samson 850 (i think its called) presonus hd7 are all pretty much the same, yet a bit different. I personally prefer the Presonus HD7 over the HD681. hell while I'm at it, the superlux HD668B I feel is better than the superlux HD681 and round about the same price. and to add even more to the confusion the superlux HD660 (a closed headphone) and very often overlooked is quite nice, a bit bass shy but clear and precise sounding, great with strings. and a sound signature akin to the AKG K701. all of the ones mentioned are cheaper then your 100 $ range.
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mashv
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Post by mashv on Jan 10, 2014 23:54:32 GMT
Thanks for the answers to both of you, i want to clarify one thing, i talked of moddability because i like a lot ae51st design, and in the future in the case they break/tear apart etc i would love to keep their design and keep listening to them as the "good old first pair of headphones" i will never dump. Something not perfect that i'd still like listening while maybe i would have a 500€ headphone. In other word, i'm not searching a headphone for modding purpose on mind, it's more something that could come in a future and i want windows open to possibilities just in case. UE6000 is a case on its own, their non replaceable earpads are bad thing for me, i think they're one of those things that sometimes needs to be replaced and easily breakable. Being unreplaceable it's a more consumistic way of thinking to headphone, more like, i buy them and change when they don't work anymore. I don't like it this way. Anyway, audio technica m50 was an option, but are not in my range of price, i found them at 139€ and more, and keep in mind that also 119€ would be too much, 100€ is actually my max(i have that exact amount in my prepaid credit card) . Speaking of what is good for listeners, i know it's not always a good thing going for a pure monitoring headphone set, i'm not even sure i want something like that, i could also be disappointed and hate them, but i don't even want a pair of wub wub dubstep enanching headphones, nor something umbalanced on treble. I want something that maybe is not perfect but that doesn't mask too much the sound while being personal and have a signature. Nothing more.. UE6000 it's near there, while being a standard looking hp, ae51st are (as i can understand from what you say) more personal, less neutral and can mask the sound a little more, am i wrong? If that's the case there's nothing bad, i will have all the time to find my way trying other headphones(when i will have money ) and understand where my tastes goes, but actually these 2 seems the perfect match, a UE6000 with the design of ae51st would be perfect, the same as a ae51st with UE6000 sound and isolation(keeping in mind i never listened them and i could even prefer ae51st better, i'm only referring to opinions and graphs to understand what fits my tastes). Now i only have to understand at what can i renounce and make a decision .
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mashv
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Post by mashv on Jan 11, 2014 0:04:45 GMT
ps. They answered this exact moment, seems like there are 2 years warranty.
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 11, 2014 8:41:23 GMT
Yes, I didn't really understand why they didn't answer since they were great with me and answered questions quickly.
They are a nice headphone, but in terms of accuracy of sound, the Superlux are better although not as pretty and not practical for mobile use; especially modded with pads and a filter that really makes them extremely impressive and much more neutral than the AE. Much cheaper too.
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solderdude
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Post by solderdude on Jan 11, 2014 8:55:31 GMT
It's hardly ever the drivers that break (but on very rare occasions happens. I had one DT990 driver fail and a KSC75, after carefully rewiring as the cable broke.
In most cases it is small plastic hinges or things that need to handle force and are only connected with a small screw that present mechanical problems. Also 'slide mechanisms' or elastic bands get worse over time but generally >10 years.
The one thing that is mostly the culprit for people writing off headphones is broken wires/plugs.
In the AE51 the mechanical build seems unlikely to break and the cable is replaceable. You won't have to use your warranty.
Replacing drivers with other ones usually affects the sound tremendously.
If you are looking for 'reference' sound quality headphones neither UE6000 nor AE51 will be it. You may not like reference type headphones that do not mask anything, most will find them 'boring' on a lot of music.
If you are looking for a 'fun' and 'musical' headphone that won't expose crappy recordings these 2 will be fine. Since appearance and construction seem a major factor as is your choice of music I would go for the old CAL or AE51 The old CAL is the less 'masking' one yet warm and pleasant on lots of music but is NOT a reference headphone (owned that one).
If you want something 'different looking', comfortable to wear and not hot on the ears in the summer and sound good (near reference grade) you could consider a Koss PortaPro but there are many not as good sounding copies out there. DO NOT buy these of Amazon, fleabay, Alibaba e.t.c. but find a real Koss dealer and expect to pay around E 40.-
The headphones I normally grab are (filter corrected) Fostex T50RP, (modified) K551, (filtered and modified) DT1350 and Koss KSC35 or KSC75. The KSC35 has the exact same drivers as the PortaPro.
Stay away from the SportaPro. They have the exact same drivers as the KSC35 BUT the headband and fit (and sound) is mediocre.
You will have a good sound and have E 60.- left BUT not a warmish signature and looks like the AE51.
Choices...
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 11, 2014 18:12:34 GMT
There are other alternatives if you're not sure as Frans says.
I use things like; (roughly around £100)
Beyer DT990 pro. (A bargain for the sound but needs and amp.) (£130 ish though I think) Fostex T40 and 50 but they need to be modified and filtered.
Mobile use is difficult since they are all so varied and I tend to use some expensive iem's from Senn.
The original CAL is better value for sound. The Panasonic I mentioned. Koss KSC75 Grado sr80i (Not really mobile though) Portapro is a good buy. (A real one - seems difficult to find!!!)
It really depends how you want to use them.
I have loads of headphones but what I use depends on what I'm doing with them and where I am. I'll put a star by things around £100 ish .....
At home (amped)
HD650 HD600 * DT990 * Fostex T40/T50 * AKG K601 (If you can still get them) * DT770 pro
At home/Hotel - portable
This really depends on the amp and it's running time as well.
* AKG K550 (about £130 now, I think) T50 HD598 and 5*5 (I always confuse the numbers!!) * Cal 1 and 2 ** Superlux Evo, HD681 with filters. * Sony V6 with eq. on dap.
Portable
Senn ie8 ** Senn px100 **Portapro Klipsch X10 ** Panasonic buckets. **(now) Apple pod things. * AE51
I have a lot of headphones, but at the moment, those are the ones that I mainly use.
Work out where you will use them most of all and what with before you choose a headphone. Then when you have a list, I tend to go for the most comfort as well as sound. An uncomfortable headphone is unusable and useless, no matter what it sounds like.
so -
a) Choose where you listen most. b) Decide what you are using mostly as a source. (and whether you want to use an amp) c) Make a list with those criteria in mind. d) eliminate anything uncomfortable
Now you have a proper list.
No amp - you need easy to drive headphones. Amp - choose according to the kinds of power that the amp is offering if that info is available.
Above all - make sure that they will be comfortable to wear.
Imo, the worst thing to do is just choose a headphone because everyone says it sounds great. I did that with Grados and ended up with headphones that hurt my ears physically so I couldn't use them.
If after considering that lot, the AE51 is still beckoning, then that's the one!!
The best headphones for me are NOT always the best sounding!! (Now that sounds strange doesn't it?) The sound that I enjoy may well NOT be the sound others enjoy. However, I have identified a number of people over the years on the internet, who seem to hear in similar ways to me so I trust their reviews and descriptions more than others. It could be that our ears are similar, but I have been lucky in that respect since Frans and I both have a kind of similarity in what we like. I can probably stomach more bass than him so I know that he wouldn't appreciate the CAL 2 in the same way that I do.
Also, because I'm a musician makes me probably 'need' more bass since that's what I tend to hear more often than not in real rooms if you see what I mean. The HD598, while being a very clean and analytical headphone just doesn't do it for me in the bass, but it does pick out every detail. I don't need that so I tend not to use it so much.
It's complicated with different tastes and shapes of ears!! On here, Frans is my distant set of ears - so if he finds something of interest, it will probably be the same for me. Equally, Frans will pick up on certain people as well. I also find Tyll pretty close to my hearing. (Not always but mostly)
However, I have seem lots of posts where what people have written just isn't what I get. They're not wrong - it could be just the shape of their ears means that they hear differently.
If you want real quality cheap at home - Superlux HD681 with a filter is lovely and way cheaper than the AE51 which for me is flawed, but nice in that it's useful for moving around being sensitive and overly warm so it covers up mp3 nasties really well. ie - it is NOT a hi fi headphone. For me, it's a bit of fun and is pleasant when I'm out in my garden flying helicopters or walking around the house. (or some bluetooth headphones that I use are nice - but again - not hi fi!!!)
So don't expect 'hi fi' from an AE51.
It all depends on what you want to do with it.
If this lot has put doubt in your mind - wait. Don't buy a headphone yet. (Unless you're like me and don't have to worry about cost!!!!)
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Javier
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Post by Javier on Jan 11, 2014 19:19:05 GMT
BTW Ian, the K601 have been replaced by the K612Pro which is the same HP but with a different color scheme (black instead of grey). If you check the specs at AKG's site you'll see they are 100% identical: AKG K612 Pro
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Rabbit
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Post by Rabbit on Jan 11, 2014 19:38:44 GMT
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